Negotiating for Theo

The Cubs and Red Sox spent Thursday trying to hash out the compensation Boston would receive from the Cubs to let Theo Epstein out of the final year of his contract.

Reportedly, Tom Ricketts has turned over a list of players to interim general manager Randy Bush, director of player personnel Oneri Fleita and scouting director Tim Wilken to evaluate for compensation for Epstein.

Theo Epstein has reportedly agreed in principal to a contract to join the Cubs front office but nothing is official as the two sides try to hammer out the final details.

According to several reports, the Cubs and Red Sox began discussing the compensation package the Red Sox would receive from the Cubs on Thursday. The Cubs would like to send cash while the Red Sox are holding out for players/prospects. A report from WEEI on Thursday afternoon indicated the talks hit a snag and “revealed a gap between the two sides.”

According to a report from Bruce Levine, “the impression among most baseball people is that deal will still get done, however, Boston is entitled to be satisfied with compensation. There’s no such thing as a timetable for these transactions. The Red Sox appear to be moving on with their front office plans, as reports out of Boston say they are getting ready to name Ben Cherington its GM. The Cubs initially asked MLB for guidance on protocol for compensation since neither owner Tom Ricketts nor president Crane Kenney had ever been involved in a situation like this.

According to the Tribune, “along with the compensation issue, the two sides also must agree on which, if any, of Epstein’s staff can come with him to Chicago.”

Several reports have indicated that the negotiations between the Cubs and Red Sox could drag into next week, which would push the official announcement until just before the start of the World Series.

Stay Tuned …

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  • Tony Spumoni

    Great!  Two can play that game.  Let the Red Sox pay Theo while he tells Randy Bush what to do on his behalf.  As the lawyers argue.

  • studio179

    This clarifies the notion that the Red Sox don’t want any Cub prospects, because they do. The Sox want better prospects than the Cubs want to give. Above says the Cubs prefer sending cash. 

    As with any negotiation, this could take a bit longer. If it goes a few days up to the World Series (which I thought it would), then no problem. Once Theo is on board, reports are saying Epstein might hire Josh Byrnes. I assume taking Randy Bush’s role.

    • J Daniel

      Josh Byrnes to???  Wow, we better all give Ricketts some love!!!

  • Tony Spumoni

    “According to Bruce Levine…Boston is entitled to be satisfied with compensation.”

    Did you ever try to “satisfy” an “ex” with “compensation”?  Good luck with that.

    It was my understanding that the White Sox received players as compensation for Ozzie because that was a “lateral” move: manager for the White Sox becomes manager for Miami.

    This is not a “lateral” move.  Theo is moving from the Red Sox to a position of considerably greater responsibility with the Cubs, a move which, traditionally, requires no accompanying compensation.

    • Tony_Hall

      Good point.

      Neil – Why do the Cubs need to compensate the Red Sox, if this is a “promotion” in title? and obviously if Theo will be reporting to the owner, this is a promotion in job responsibility.

      • cmschube

        I think it has to do with the fact that Theo is still under contract with the Red Sox. If he were a “free agent” (or whatever you wanna call a GM with no job) we wouldn’t have to give them anything.

        Which begs the question.. If Theo wants to come to the Cubs so badly, why would he just not resign, and then sign with the Cubs? I agree, it would be kind of bush league, but really, who cares!? I’d pretty much do whatever it takes to get this type of promotion and double my pay!!

        Funny how sports work so differently from the rest of the world. Have you ever heard of a company’s VP essentially being headhunted by another company and then the headhunter having to pay their current company to come over to them? This is a bunch of BS if you ask me.

        • Tony_Hall

          Of course it it because Theo has a contract, no different than if you had a contract to be employed for x amount of time.  The company you are contracted for, could just let you go, or demand something in return from you or the new company.

          My question was, normally in baseball, teams don’t receive compensation for promotions. Example – Pitching coach gets promoted to manager.  AAA Manager gets promoted to major league teams coach.  GM gets promoted to President, etc..  This is a promotion in title and who Theo will report (from reporting to the President, to now the owner).  So why is compensation needed, and how can they be so far apart, when the MLB office wants to keep this from setting a new, higher standard for deals.

          • John_CC

            But it’s not a promotion within the organization.  The situation is as you described in the first paragraph.  The Red Sox do not have to let him go, he is under contract.  They have leverage and want compensation.

          • Tony_Hall

            But it is a promotion coming to the Cubs.  They have already made it known that Cherington has been in charge while Theo has been talking to the Cubs, and will take over for him.  There really is no turning back now…leverage gone.  

      • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

        Tony, that could be the point the Cubs are trying to make on the compensation package. It would be a promotion for Epstein.

        The fact that he still has a year remaining on his contract is why the Sox want something in return.

    • cubtex

      He is getting double his salary…..Lateral or not.

  • Tony_Hall

    Sure seems strange that compensation wasn’t already discussed prior to now. This won’t stop the deal,only delay it.

  • Michael

    Typical Boston, they chase Terry out of town, then turn bitter when he speaks about it to the media, so they get personal to the press about his personal life (marriage, health). Then Theo wants out and they think they should receive Castro as compensation. I know we haven’t won since sugar cost four cents a pound but just seeing how different the fan bases react and how they hold themselves in the time of crisis makes me a lot more proud to be a fan of the Cubs.

  • Dorasaga

    I can’t believe what this journalist was saying about PK Wrigley. “Noble”? Com’on, he should know better!:

    http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/10/12/the-cubs/

  • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil
    • John G

      “The attention, the scrutiny, it won’t be a 365-day thing for him. There won’t be the public expectations and the media expectations.’’

      HA!! This guy, obviously, has never spent much time in Chicago.

      • Dorasaga

        There’s some truth in this book writer’s opinion. He says, “For Theo, what can he do to top what he’s done? Unless they win the
        Series, the season is perceived as a failure. Unless he can win five in a
        row or something, there’s nothing he can do to make people stop in the
        street like they did a few years ago.”

        Cubs beat writers and perhaps a substantial amount of fans didn’t demand Jim Hendry to win as many as Boston did. Boston Globe was listing, I mean, LISTING out every single wrong that Theo Epstein did. The same was done by the New York media. I have the feeling that the Phillies media will represent public opinion against Mr. Amaro as the Ryan Howard extension kicks in.

        I mean, even on CCO, one of the world’s leading Cubs source and forum, fans were saying nice things about Hendry. “Well respected,” “Class act…” and so on.

        My initial reaction was of course, WTx? The guy is a mediocre GM that couldn’t garner a World Series appearance. He’s over his head when it comes to building a plan for the future (and too many failed draft picks from top to bottom). He drove Sandberg, a winner, away from town. He hired Quade.

        Anyway, I’m a little tired of the class act thing. We loved DLee. He’s a class act. But he failed to perform in 2010. That was the end of his contract. Something could have been done to move him. But couldn’t. I don’t think the Boston media will let go of this, and all the myriad of wrongs that the past Cubs management had done. That includes the Tribune and Zell.

  • studio179

    I would love to see the player list Ricketts gave to Bush, Fleita and Wilken. Both sides are playing tough. I hope Ricketts keeps playing tough.

  • Bryan

    I love this Quade statement.  Tick, tick, tick…and goodbye Quade!

    From MLB Trade Rumors:

    Mike Quade says he wasn’t consulted about the Cubs’ pursuit of Epstein, the incumbent manager tells ESPN Chicago, though he has no hard feelings about not being a part of the GM search.

    • J Daniel

      Why would he be consulted?  Even if the plan was to keep him on next year there is no need for his input.  I am sure most bosses in any business do not consult the employees about an upper management hire.

      Now, I do agree with Qua probably being gone – just not because they didn’t consult him.

    • John_CC

      What a delusional crank!  Why in hell would an owner consult a first year manager about the GM search and hire???

      Wow! It’s great to finally hear from Quadie, though. I forgot how entertaining and dumbfounding he is!!

      • J Daniel

        Maybe we can get Quade to speak a little more to make it easier for Theo to make up his mind and fire him!

    • paulcatanese

      They don’t have to consult Qua, they already know what his thoughts are, they are written on a postage stamp, take anyone they want except his untouchables and vets. All of the rookies and minor’s are open to give to Boston.

  • Jay from Sanwich

    Well I am not surpriced that they want players. Remember the current Red Sox presindent got quite a bit for san diago when they let there GM make a latteral move.Tradionally in major sports like Baseball, Football, basketball, and Hockey when you are promototing the indivivual in job title and responability there is no conpensation. But it is done out of respect for other potentual management people who you want to hire in the future and current ones you want to keep. Meaning  this will hurt the Red Sox in the long run because there management type people including scotts will have to think hard about the possiblity of them get put over a bareal and lossing a chance to beter themshelves. Incourt this would not hold up at all. The Rickets should offer only a lower end prospect (or two) or a prospect that they have no plans for in the future plus money. I would also put a dead line of 11:00 am the day before the world searies starts If they can not agree then they Hire the White Sox ass. as GM or some other (who will eventual work with THEO a year later).
    This well put the red sox on the hot seat. They will get stuck with a possible un-happy employee in a key position. Next year the cubs make Theo the President of baseball operations with no compensation. Which fair and traditional. My best offer would be Byrd no way I will give them pitching or any middle level or above prospects……..

  • paulcatanese

    Ah, bring back the days before expansion, eight teams in each league. The days when everyone knew the players without a scorecard. The days when there were only sixteen first basemen to deal with, the days when top salaries were in $ 100,000 dollar figures. The days when a .250 hitter was sent packing instead of multi-year contracts that paid more than the President of the country made. The days when the best in Baseball were in the Major Leagues and not the second tier players that occupy rosters now One knew how many double plays their favorite team had without a computer. And who cared about the stats that indicated if a team was better on grass or artificial turf. The days of doubleheaders and not day night games that give additional revenue instead of pleasure. The days of players giving 100% when they had a headache instead of choosing to sit. I can sit back and dream about the days that were and could have a smile on my face instead of cringing about multi-million dollar players that just flat out stink.

    • J Daniel

      Yes!  And the days in which people could read, write, spell, punctuate, and actually write a correct sentence.  Days in which parents were accountable for their children.  I am wit u paul the simplar lfe

      • paulcatanese

        And White Castle hamburgers were a nickle or a dime for a double.

        • Zippy2212

          And a family of 4 could actually afford to go to a game!

          • J Daniel

            As well as the game was always on channel 9!  What a complete mess now – is it on 9? No, try 665.  Not there either, how about 26 or is it comcast 666+ ??? Oh for the old days!

          • John_CC

            And if you wanted rant, condole, or cheer for the Cubs with fellow fans it had to be in there physical presence…

          • John G

            And 35,000 seats went on sale the day of the game. A dad could wake up look outside and decide it was a nice day to take his kid to a ballgame.

          • Tony Spumoni

            My dad and I did that very thing many times.

          • Chuck

            Listen to Jack Brickhouse saying it was a beautiful day for a ballgame.  And if it was a Friday, it was ladies day..  If you are near the ballpark, come on out, there are plenty of good seats still available.

          • paulcatanese

            One special memory, Sunday afternoon, with the garage door open, the grill with Italian sausage and green peppers cooking and watching the game on a 20 inch black and white tv with rabbit ears and neighbors bouncing in and out to catch the score. Two or three lawn chairs were soon eight or nine chairs, and the tub of beer, after a while no one knew what the score was.

          • Chuck

            aaaahhhh the good old days.  I am 64 years old.  First Cub game was in 1956, Cubs vs. Brooklyn Dodgers.  People still say to me how lucky I was to see players like Jackie Robinson, Duke Snider, PeeWee Reese and Gil Hodges.  And through the years players like Stan Musial, Eddie Matthews, Warren Spahn.  Even went to Comisky to see Mickey Mantle.  Living here in Ft. Myers, I see the St. Lucie Mets play the Fort Myers Miracle  (Twins).  Pitching coach for the Mets is Phil Regan.  We occassionaly talk about the 69 Cubs.  I was one year out of college and did have opportunity to see a few games in left field bleachers with the Bleacher Bums.  Later on, it was fun with the Shawn-O meter in the bleachers. Now my season tickets are in section 518, Row 1.  It is by the ramp by the announcer’s booth.

          • paulcatanese

            You are right, those were the special things in Baseball. To this day, I still hate the Dodgers and Giants for moving to the West Coast and I live out here,moved from Chicago in 1963.

          • Tno13

            Frankie Baumholtz & Hank Sauer were my first two Cub heroes

          • paulcatanese

            Phil Cavaretta was mine, Andy Pafko, Peanuts Lowry,and that whole bunch.

          • Tno13

            Phil-a-Buck!

          • paulcatanese

            You are correct sir.

    • Dorasaga

      Those were also the days before America relied on immigration. Those were days when globalization was stalled because of the World War, then Vietnam and the Cold War. Those were days when Blacks and Jews would be attacked when they came to a Major League ballpark, and before Sexual Revolution. Since then, American population had grown four-fold.

      It’s good to remember the old days. It’s our heritage. I love the history. But I like the progress as well. Baseball has become more exciting, methinks. Batters put balls in play much better. Defensive plays were made quicker and no call can be taken for granted. Stats are less misleading because more passionate intellectuals thrown their lives under the bus to tell a true story.

      Best of all, we want the Cubs to win, not to sell products that we’ll otherwise never recommend to our next generation.

      • paulcatanese

        I dont think this is the place to get into racial epitaths, not dis agreeing with you, but thats a sensitive subject to many. I might just say though that my father, grandfather and grandfather on my mothers side were not born in the USA. I have a hundred stories on that but this is not the place. I have lived thru all of what you state and am happy a lot is rectified .

        As far as the progress of baseball, I cannot in all good faith justify millions upon millions paid to unerachieving athletes who really do not know what the heritige of baseball means, and are average at best.

        Meanwhile, the poverty level in the US continues to rise.

      • paulcatanese

        Leaving your’e first paragraph for another day, I would say the good old days for me was a better time. Baseball had the cream in the Majors because of limited teams for players to get there. The major teams with substaintial farm systems were the Cardinals and the Yankees.

        Yes,batters put balls in play much better, but I attribute that to superior equipment, better ballpark maintnence and weight training of the athletes.
        If you ever had (I’m sure you have) the opportunity to see just the glove that was used then. (no laced fingers or webs) I started out that way. Now it is so much easier to field a ball. And catchers mitts, heavy, small and a pocket that was almost non existant.

        Stats now are insane, hits with two outs, with one strike, a lefty a righty, grass, artificial turf, day games, night games, sac bunts.sac flies,I could go on and on but you get the point.

        The only hitter in the game today that would even compare with the Ted Williams, the Dimaggios, the Musials would be Pujols, but I know for sure he would not command the money he is asking for now (After adjustment for the difference in  dollars). Show me a shortstop that compares with the Aparicio’s, the Marions,this could go on and on.

        Pitchers the same, even just twenty years ago they were better, more resiliant, more complete games etc.

        Now players have a carreer with one thought, when they can become free agents and demand more money. Show me one player today who would even say,”they would pay to play the game”, or “play it for nothing” Just wont happen.

        For the fans, baseball is a game that features “forced inflation”, someone must pay these salaries, and the buck stops with the fan, with increased ticket prices, parking fees, and refreshments. No, bring back the old days for me, wont happen but I wish it could be so.

        • Dorasaga

          I want to leave the discussion of baseball money aside, which I also agree that it’s sad so many are below the poverty line (I was one of them), because we pay stars and specialty celebrities (Hollywood and Emmy singers) a lot more than the average Joe as well…

          The growth of the league (more teams) was necessary. In fact, I would argue that the growth of population and newer cities all need a Major League team. It’s a shame that most got a single or double-A affiliate.

          Training, or better training, is part of the progress. Better technology, and so, those are necessary because we want better baseball. And it’s not only with baseball, but sports in general.

          There are more people into PhD that deals with Sports Physics than ever before. More experts are trying to combine motion capture engines with statistical analysis (which has nothing to do with math, or at least advanced math like Calculus). I have a friend who’s studying that in Denmark.

          Experts detect signs of injury earlier, and players are in better shape when they come back from injury, thus, longer career.

          Nothing to do with the Cubs, but I like the progress in baseball, and I want to see more of it. The bottom line here is that while baseball progresses, the Cubs need to improve. The “lovable loser” and the culture from such Cubs fans disgusted me. Why do people lie to themselves? We love to lose? We love to be left behind? Like you said, we love to pay for bad players?

          Paul, I hope you’ve read this. It has nothing to do with stats, but what’s wrong with Cubs Think:
          http://www.cubsstats.com/2011/10/why-chicago-cubs-fail.html

          • paulcatanese

            Just got in the door. Read the article and it’s a good one. I only did a quick overview and will review it again as it makes a number of good points, some of which I had mentioned last year, especially “the Wrigley experience” thank you very much for bringing it to my attention.

          • Dorasaga

            You are most generous, Paul. I must say I’m too obsessed with some of my own beliefs. Maybe there’s nothing wrong to stay where we are. I watched the “Field of Dreams” last month, and I thought, something never changed, and that’s good.

          • paulcatanese

            Not at all. You have some very intelligent insights to the game and especially the history and the interest you have in it. Along with everything else in different time periods that you inquire about. I would say Chicago has come a long way from the time of my youth, when many of the things that were mentioned did happen and more. My age had me experience a lot of them, some were bad, others were good, but time has improved a lot of them. Still a way to go.

  • Anthony

    What position on the Red Sox is the weakest…………MLB ready prospect
    What areas in the Red Sox farm are the weakes……..A/AA prospects
    What surplus prospects do the Cubs have?

    What is a “the next Youkiliss” prospect? KY was/had to be an over-acheiver since high school/college ball because he had many doubters. Does that spell sleeper prospect? Diamond in the rough?

    Remember, every team scouts the SAME players out of high school and college, so they all have amateur scouting reports already.

    Although I disagree with players being swapped for non-players, that opinion doesn’t matter, so……………

    Start answering the questions above and you can probably get a better idea of which players are on the Boston want list!

  • Darrenmcculloch

    Just give the Red Sox a keg of Samuel Adams and a year supply of fried chicken.  That should please the pitching staff.

  • Brp921

    Boston isn’t going to resign Epstein once his contract is up, and it seems they want Cherington as GM anyway. The Cubs should just tell Boston they will hire someone else if they won’t be reasonable. It is rediculous to even think about giving up some of the prospects I’ve seen mentioned here. There are more candidates available who are qualified to run a franchise than just Epstein. I would call their bluff and go another way if it doesn’t work out.

  • Ripsnorter1

    Well, here we go again:

    OVERPAYING FOR MEDIOCRITY.
    Who’s mediocre?Theo Epstein. 
    He’s the Sorry-oh-no of the front office.
    He ain’t worth $20 million.He ain’t worth a bunch of prospects.Promote Bush for one year and sign him for free. Put that $20 million into some starting pitching.

    • Gramps

      Hey Rip, is there anything the Cubs have ever done that you liked or approved of? I like the idea that they seem to finally have a plan and an owner that seems to take a hands-on attitude. It is something the team has never had. What with a new spring training facility, money spent on the draft and foreign players, I think Ricketts is doing something no other owner of the Cubs has ever done. I really think he wants to win. And I think he is doing everything he can to make that goal come true.

      • Gary J

        Bravo Gramps.

      • Ripsnorter1

        Sure there is, Gramps:

        1. I was happy that the Cubs fired Jim Qlueless.2. I was happy when Lou walked away.
        3. I was happy when the Cubs signed Fergie Jenkins and Billy Williams to $100,000 contracts.

        WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?  LOL

        My point, Gramps, is that I am too cheap to throw $20 million at this guy.I don’t see him as a vast improvement over Jim Qlueless. I know that you like to wear the googles–and that’s okay. I just like to see reality. Let’s look at Boston’s Farm System……

        Epstein was hired as GM at the end of the 2002 season.
        (Must pitch 50 IP or have 200 AB to be considered)
        Let’s look at his drafts:
        2003 50 picks:
         3 MLB Matt Murton (ChiCubs), Dave Murphy (Texas), Papelbon (Bos); 

        2004 50 picks…
        2 successes
        Padroia, Meridith (Balt)

        2005 50 picks/2 successes
        Ellsbury
        Hanson (6.94 career ERA)
        Bowden (56 IP, 5.75 ERA)
        Bucholtz

        2006 50 picks/3 winners
        Bard 5-13….2.88 ERA
        Masterson (Cle)
        Reddick

        2007 50 picks/0 winners thus far

        2008 50 picks/0 winners thus far

        2009 50 picks/0 winners thus far

        2010 50 picks/0 winners
         
        2011 50 picks/0 winners

        Source: The Baseball Cubehttp://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/draft.asp?Y=2003&T=5

        He’s not out drafting Jim Qlueless, folks.

        What do others say of the Boston Farm System?

        Baseball America, 23 March 2011, ranked the Cubs system #16 and the BoSox #17. 

        http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-talent-rankings/2011/2611472.html

        • Tony_Hall

          Name me who Jim Hendry’s – Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Buckholz, Bard are in the Cubs system?

          Also remember that he is drafting at the end of every round, versus JH drafting at the beginning of most rounds, most of the years.

          He is a huge improvement over JH, but that wouldn’t take much.

          • cubtex

            Agreed

          • John_CC

            Seriously. Those 5 guys aren’t just average MLB players. I’d also take Masterson, Murphy and Meredith over most Cubs players. 

            And you know what else Rip, if you are “too cheap” to be able to get your mind around paying the President/GM of a near billion dollar enterprise 4 million bucks a year…man, you better get a yurt and head for the hills. 

        • cubtex

          Rip, you know my thoughts on Theo. He is overrated and overhyped…….but I don’t agree with your assesment of the drafts. This is why I am always saying that it is OK to trade “some” of your prospects for proven talent.  Very few minor leaguers make it. That is a fact! The “David Eckstein” success stories are far and few between. Out of any draft year if you get 2 draftees to become a mlb starter….you are doing outstandin! 3 is a grand slam. I will give “Boy Wonder” his props when it comes to draftin Pedroia,Ellsbury,Bucholz and Masterson. I will not give “Boy Wonder” props for building a winner without making millions of dollars of misstakes with brutal Free Agent signings over the years. As I have said and will say again….Almost every GM could have done what he did with the financial backing he had.

          • Dorasaga

            I believe there was a stat that found out, on average, only 12% of all draft picks made it (of each team from each year, since 1980s… to stay at the Major League roster for at least a full year).

        • SuzyS.

          Hey Rip, I posted yesterday…and I’m with Gramps….What’s different is that Rickett’s has constantly pointed to his admiration of Boston as an organizatiion….and NOW he is going after the ARCHITECT of that organization.
          In short….misguided or NOT….Ricketts is going after THE VERY BEST (in his opinion), and is willing to put his money where his dream is.

          When did we EVER have an owner that did that?

          I like this move….even though Friedman might be the better choice.

          In short, even if Epstein falls down…I now believe that Ricketts will do whatever it takes to win…Epstein or not…while I expect it to take some time….I do believe we will be headed for competitive play and possibly a World Series win…within the next 3-5 years.

          Until this July/August…there was little evidence of any hope towards this goal

          • cubtex

            I agree 100% about Ricketts! He spent huge dollars in the draft, hired a GM who he thought of as one of the better(even though I don’t agree) and is making a statement that he is in it to win it! He has been a refreshing change. I hope he brings us a winner!

    • John_CC

      Get a grip, man.

  • jfish1219

    arg “thekapman David Kaplan 
    brett jackson pulled in usa world cup game, signs pointing he may be apart of theo compensation?!”

    • BosephHeyden

      Muskat states he “tweeked his foot”.  Of course, she also does “company line” stuff, so we’ll see.

    • Calicub

      i can’t wait for this stupid media storm to end.   Muscat replied with a “Calm Down” so i don’t think she is pushing the company line. I’m sure she’s just as sick as the rest of us are of hearing these media monkeys beating a dead horse with a rubber chicken whilst wearing a clown costume….

      Mainstream Journalists are wh0%es and idiots.  Brett Jackson is not going to be traded and the thousand twitter hits you get by saying he is isn’t going to fool me Mr. Kaplan

      • jfish1219

        Ya I saw that tweet…I’m already sick of this, just get it done and announce it already. No more dog and pony show.

      • Ripsnorter1

        But If Brett Jackson IS dealt….what will you say then?

        • Calicub

          But if Theo Epstein does lead the Cubs to mulitple WS…what will you say then?

          The cubs would be idiotic to give up anything other than Koyie Hill for compensation.  Theo wants out of Boston.  Its Clear. Why would you give up someone like that when a deal could be made for other GMs (Cherrington/Friedman) who could possibly be even better and not demand any compensation. 

          • Ripsnorter1

            Agree: Koyie Hill is the limit. 

            Agree: Friedman is the much better choice. 
            DO WE AGREE ON THIS:
            The Cubs will idiotically give up Jackson for Epstein?I don’t think Jackson will be anything more than Colvin right now, but I wouldn’t give up my best minor leaguer for this guy.

          • gocubs

            “Jackson will be anything more than Colvin right now”  
            Come on Ripsnorter, you have got to be joking.  Colvin is not a ML player.  His minor league numbers are pretty much in line with the player he is now…decent power, never walks, strikes out a lot.  

            Jackson walks a ton, has power, strikes out a fair amount.  Jackson is a FAR, FAR superior player.  Thats not an opinion – look at the numbers.  Colvin career minor league .782 OPSJackson career minor league .884 OPS  

          • Ripsnorter1

            The scouts all say that Jackson’s strikeout rate–which is more than 1 K per 3 ABs (64k in 185 AB in AAA; that’s 1 k every 2.89 AB)–will prevent him from being an everyday player. He may be nothing more than Colvin is now. We will have to wait and see. 

            If he strikes out only that much in the MLs, that still puts him in the top 5 2011 players for SO/AB. Mark Reynolds (2.72), Drew Stubbs (2.94),Carlos Pena (3.03), Adam Dudd (2.34). Jackson would be #5.

            Even Adam Dudd’s career SO rate is lower (2.98). Still, you could argue that Adam Dunn is employed, as is Stubbs, Reynolds and Pena. But Pena, Dudd and Reynolds have near top of the league power numbers. Stubbs is a speedster that is hopefully developing. Jackson would have to show something like that to become a full time player.

            Now consider this: Is Jackson likely to strike out more, or less, or the same number of times when he moves up to the MLs?
            My guess: more. Why? He will face even better pitching. 

            I don’t want to give Jackson away, mind you. But I am not too sanguine about his star status.

          • Dorasaga

            Mark Reynolds never walked. Stubbs was raised as a leadoff hitter and CF, who relies on more skills than batting. I just think we need to go through all the info. (and stats) before we make judgement on Bret’s future.

  • Tony_Hall

    For those that don’t watch the Twitter feed

    RT @Buster_ESPN Rival GM: “Cubs should keep saying no (on compensation for Theo). What are the Red Sox going to do bring Theo back? No way.” about a minute ago

    Exactly right!!

    • cubtex

      Exactly. They really don’t have much leverage. Cubs can say….on second thought that is out of line and you can have him back. How do you think that would go over with the Boston faithful??? I really believe that Henry was going to let Theo walk next year anyway and that is why he let the Cubs talk to him.

    • Tno13

      Exactly right is exactly right.
      If (unlikely) this deal should fall through, Boston has a big front office problem with Cherrington pissed, Epstein an empty suit, and bad feelings everywhere.
      The Cubs come out of it looking like a team that won’t be bullied into a bad deal.
      I offer a prospect in the top 20-30 range and wait them out.

  • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

    From Dave Kaplan: Just spoke to a GREAT source
    on the Theo compensation talks. Red Sox are asking for an insane
    package of players. Cubs are saying no way.

    • Last_ginger

      It sounds like the Red Sox are trying to string this out as long as possible.

    • cubtex

      I hope they just walk if the Red Sox remain unrealistic.

    • John G

      If the Cubs walk away from this deal, it’s the BoSox that are going to look foolish. Stick to your guns TR

  • studio179

    Keep saying no to insane demands from Boston, Mr. Ricketts. The Cubs are in the drivers seat here (for a change) and it feels good. The Red Sox are making themselves look bad to MLB insiders and fans.

  • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

    From Kaplan: Sources tell me that Cubs are prepared to be fair but will not give in to the Red Sox. We’ll see who blinks.

    • cubs1967

      I would tell Boston you have till Sunday nite to say OK or he’s all yours along with his 3M salary plus the 3.5M bonus the Cubs are paying if he leaves  and you can tell Cherington he is again (2nd time) not the GM.
      even though I scream 103 yrs is enough; what’s 1 more.  Tell Bush to trade Z and Sori; who cares for what and hire Sandberg.  Cubs can wait.  screw the egomanic arrogant NESN East Coast bastards.  Theo will be free in 2012.
      OR……..call up Friedman for a “what the hell” conversation.

      who does Boston really think they are???

      at what point does MLB say………really??

      Tommyboy tell those Matt Damon/Ben Afleck lovin’ whiny “bastarrrrrrrrds”
      if the GM was sooooooooooo good; how did they blow a 9.5 game lead??(hint –he can’t pitch or hit——-so here’s Jay Jackson and Rafael Dolis and have a nice day).

      to paraphrase the bilzzard of Oz and Kenny “a screw must be loose—“Williams…………stay Chicago tough.

      Red Sux………screw you!!

    • cc002600

      I wouldn’t give them a bag of balls.
      The cubs have all the leverage.

      I would have no problem if cubs walked away and move on to another candidate. 

      I like Theo, but he’s not God. Holy cow.

      • Ripsnorter1

        You talk too much sense to be a Cubs fan. Does every Cubs fan hate you?

  • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

    Cubs in AFL (10/14): Junior Lake (3B):1-for-5,HR; Josh
    Vitters (DH): 4-for-5, 2B, 2R; DJ LeMahieu (1B): 2-for-4, HR, 2RBI, 2R, SB; Andrew
    Cashner: 2R, 2H, BB, K, 1IP; Marcus Hatley: 4R, 5H, BB, K, 1.2IP
     

    • bpot92

      had Vitters shown any improvement in plate discipline/walk rate at all in the AFL?

      • Tom U

        More to come on Monday, but in 37 AB – 2BB/6K

    • cubtex

      Vitters has been crushing the ball but I wish he was playing 3rd base instead of 1st and DHing.

  • suzys

    In regards to compensation for the Red Sox….just give them Z and have them pick up half his salary….which is probably what’s going to happen in any Z deal anyhow. Throw in Grabow as a gimme and we’re done.

    • Anonymous47701

      No, Suzy. The Cubs should not give up anything but cash as compensation for any reason at all, because the Red Sox brought this on themselves. Ben Cherington is expected to replace Epstein, so what is the point in keeping him away from the Cubs? It would not have mattered if Big Z or Grabow were included in compensation, because they’re not accepting Major League Players anyway. Besides, I look for Carlos Zambrano to be traded to the Miami Marlins and John Grabow to walk as a Free Agent. If the Red Sox want players, I think 3B Marquez Smith and SS Elliot Soto and/or Cash is enough for compensation, and if they don’t like it, then too bad.

    • Dorasaga

      Yeah, and the Redsox should happily accept this deal. “There’s never enough pitching,” said Theo Epstein.

  • Tno13

    Here’s my bright idea…Ricketts tells Henry his demands are way beyond anything he’s willing to pay and the deal can’t be done. He then asks for permission to talk with Cherington, Because it’s a clear promotion, Henry almost has to allow it.
    Henry and his organization are now f*&ked. They face the prospect of  losing the guy they want (Cherington) and get stuck with a guy they don’t want (Epstein) with one year left on his contract. Their front office will be in turmoil for at least a year.
    Because Cherington is an assistant the compensation has to be lower, if any.
    I think Boston becomes a little easier to deal with given that option.

    • cubs1967

      that’s a brillaint idea……….then the red sux are looking at neither guy in a year………the sux have NO leverage after Theo said he was done anyway in 2012 plus this is a promotion for theo……….so when does MLB say there is no history to allow more than so-so prospects. get it done.

      it all goes back to if theo is sooooooooo good; how do you blow a 9.5 game lead.  hint-he don’t pitch or bat……..SO get off the top level compensation.

      ricketts needs to prove something here………….and show the red sux for their real colors!

    • Ripsnorter1

      You ASSUME the Red Sox will grant permission. Do not assume that because the granting of “permission” means that the Red Sox have control over whether or not the Cubs can talk to either Theo or Cherington. 

      The Red Sox are not compelled by anything other than tradition to grant permission for anyone to talk to their personnel that is already under contract with them. The MLB tradition has been to not stand in the way of an employee moving up in title with another team. But the Red Sox could very well break that tradition and simply say “no.” 

      • cubs1967

        and that’s OK too……make the Red Sux look worse to other teams.  it would only give the Cubs more leverage.  like I said; Cubs can wait till after 2012 when Theo is free.  the owners have leaked lots of crap on Francona and it looks like they are now starting to treat Theo the same way………so how’s that gonna work if the cubs say all yours.

        cubs have 2 min goals for next year; which Bush could take care of.  trade Z and the marlins will take him………..and move Sori.

        boston is stupidly arrogant……….

      • Tno13

        Henry, in his interview on WEEI, indicated they followed the tradition of letting their people pursue promotions with other clubs. Of course they are not compelled to do so, but he is on record as saying they do so in cases where there is a promotion. Lateral moves no.

  • Tony_Hall

    Boy, these guys sure don’t understand how to negotiate.  John Henry talks like it is all done and Theo is gone, yet they are holding out for a package of players…I’ll give them a package of players…Dewitt, Baker, Hill…

    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7101409/boston-red-sox-owner-john-henry-said-did-everything-keep-theo-epstein

    • Last_ginger

      Kaplan’s been tweeting that Luchino has made it personal and is doing everything he can to make Theo’s life miserable for wanting to leave.

      • Dorasaga

        Lucchino has been a jerk since his days with the Padres.

    • Last_ginger
    • cc002600

      screw the red sox and their arrogant owners.
      I hope TR tells then to pound sand.
      I don’t give them a thing. Who do they think they are ?
      If they wanted Theo so badly, why didn’t they offer him big $$$ to stick around ? You know why ?  he’s not God, and they know it.

      The Hype machine on this guy is so overboard. Was just listenning to the score and I wanted to scream. The stupid host is ready to give up anyone and anybody for Theo, INCLUDING Castro. Are you kidding me ????

      If they don’t like it, fine…bye, bye, Theo. hello Rick Hahn. hello Josh Byrnes. Etc, etc.

      Stick to your guns, TR !!!!!

      • Tony_Hall

        It looks like Ricketts is doing just that, otherwise they would have a deal.

        Theo has 2 World Series rings, that is all they hype I need, but I agree if the deal is too much, than start working on someone else, get them right to the point of a done deal, and give the Red Sox, one last chance, at  a fair deal.

        • cc002600

          Agreed.

          and I know he has 2 WS rings, but so did McFail.  People that are falling all over themselves about this guy have a short memory. I seem to remember that McFail was going to to be the savior too and how’d that work out ? and so was Dallas Green. Neither of them won squat.

          Plus, let’s not forget. To me, Theo was dealt 4 aces in Boston.  He had biggest payroll in baseball after Yankees and walked into good farm system.  His FA signings have been nothing short of abysmal. The guy is not a God.

          Don’t get me wrong, I like the guy, but I just can’t get over some of the things I hear on the radio and read in the newspaper.  The new thing I keep hearing is this question: is the GM more important than a top prospect ? Well, ok, yes, he is. But guess what ?  We can hire other guys for nothing that could be just as good, if not better than Theo the wondor boy. But top prospects do NOT grow on trees. You have to build your team arund something.

      • Last_ginger

        The score is nothing but White Sox guys. I hate when they talk Cubs.

  • studio179

    These Boston’s owners look terrible. Negotiation is one thing, but they look like bitter and unlikable people in everything I read and hear. They created this mess and are acting childish. Henry does not have to say in reference to the Cubs ‘who I don’t care that much about’ to the media. Even if he thinks it, just leave that part out. Show some class.

    “It would be unfair to the Cubs, who I don’t care that much about, but certainly to the Red Sox, and to Theo and to the people involved to comment about what’s going on until there’s something to be announced,” Henry said during the radio appearance.

  • Chuck

    I can’t wait for spring training here in Fort Myers; I will be wearing my Cubby Blue and proud of it.  It will surely draw comments fronm the Boston fans.  BTW my Florida license plates on my cars:  CUBSFN1 and CUBBYFN. 

  • Tony Spumoni

    You’ve got to be prepared to walk away from any deal.  I’m prepared to walk away from this one, if necessary.

    Maybe it’s time to place a call to Pat Gillick.

  • cubtex

    They can always hire one of Theo’s puppets for a year who he was going to take to Chicago with him in the first place. Call him interim GM and have him decisions for a year and when Theo’s contract expires next year the Cubs will bring him on with the same negotiated title and contract. This way….no unreasonable compensation paid to BSox and they will have a Theo prodigy making the calls(obviously many secret conversations with Theo during the year) until Theo comes aboard next year. There you go….problem solved!

    • cc002600

      Exactly.
      No way I give up a thing for him.
      Screw the red sox and their arrogant owners.

      It’s like buying a car. TR has to make them believe he’s willing to walk away. The cubs have the leverage, not the red sox.

      If they give up Brett Jackson I will be very pissed.

    • studio179

      So long as they have the long distance nod from Theo to replace Quade as a priority. 

    • paulcatanese

      What has all of this to do with Castro moving to third base?

      • cubtex

        Ha ha. Nice one Paul!

  • cornerlots baseball

    Theo Epstein GM for Cubs, great! Like Billy Beam in the movie “Money Ball”, a good head office team with the players bench might look good for the Cubs in 2012, and get Cub fans excited again.

  • daverj

    If the Red Sox are holding out for top tier prospects, then I’d walk away and let the Red Sox deal with the fallout.  While Epstein is clearly an upgrade over Hendry, I’m not completely sold on him.  There are other quality candidates out there.  If the Red Sox will take a couple mid-tier prospects, then I’d make the deal and bring Epstein to Chicago. 

  • Calicub

    Hey Neil is there something wrong with the twitter feed or is it just my computer? it hasn’t been loading all day.

    thanks for all you do.

    • Calicub

      Ohp! started working

    • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

      Twitter was having problems earlier

  • Calicub

    with it being the weekend and the WS starting Wednesday whats the likelihood this deal isn’t finalized for another few weeks?

  • paulcatanese

    Going out to watch my Grand son play football, by the time I get back,I expect this will all be ironed out and the deal made or the Red Sox will want the whole Cub roster plus cash.

    • paulcatanese

      Just have to bragg a little here, the Grand son was 15 for 19, two passing TD’s and 1 rushing TD, not bad for a 13 yr old wgt class to 225 lbs. The best part of the game was when he came over after the game and said
      “Thanks for coming to my game”,and shaking my hand.

  • matthew8510

    neil what do you think are the chances of cubs going after cc  ive already heard him connected to cubs he would definitely boost the pitching staff

    • Calicub

      I’m not neil but that would be HUGE!!!

      CC
      Garza
      Dempster
      Cashner
      Wells

      Adding CC would automatically make the Cubs 10-15x better and would finally give the Cubs that ace at the front they need.

      Either way there is a bevy of mediocre and worse SP in the FA with a few stand outs.  CC would be great and should the new GM decide to go FA there are some potentials for the rotation:

      Starting Pitchers (COT’s)
      Mark Buehrle CWS
      Bruce Chen KC
      Aaron Cook COL *
      Kyle Davies TOR
      Ryan Dempster CHC *
      Justin Duchscherer OAK
      Zach Duke ARI *
      Jeff Francis KC
      Freddy Garcia NYY
      Jon Garland LAD
      Aaron Harang SD
      Rich Harden OAK
      Livan Hernandez WAS
      Edwin Jackson STL
      Kenshin Kawakami ATL
      Scott Kazmir LAA
      Hiroki Kuroda LAD
      Rodrigo Lopez CHC
      Paul Maholm PIT
      John Maine COL
      Jason Marquis WAS
      Kevin Millwood NYY
      Scott Olsen PIT *
      Roy Oswalt PHI *
      Brad Penny DET
      Oliver Perez NYM
      Joel Pineiro LAA
      CC Sabathia NYY (may opt out)
      Carlos Silva NYY
      Javier Vazquez FLA
      Tim Wakefield BOS
      Chien-Ming Wang WAS
      Brandon Webb ARIC.J. Wilson TEX
      Chris Young NYM

      If I had it my way it would be CC, CJ Oswalt, Garza, Cashner

      • daverj

        An overweight starting pitcher who will command a long term deal at $20+ million per year … no thanks.  Signing CC would be like signing Soriano all over again …

        • Last_ginger

          CC is not Sori and is the best lefty in the league. Eats innings and plays with tremendous effort example in the brewers wild card run in 08. CC is worth it

        • matthew8510

          as long as he eats innings and keeps gettin over 15 wins i dont care if hes 500 pounds

        • The Maven

          Just like I said about Prince Fielder. If they sign CC Sabathia to a long term deal, they’ll have to roll him out of one of those outfield doors like the girl who turned into a blueberry in Willy Wonka by the time his contract is up.

    • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

      I do not think they are going to sign any big ticket free agents this off-season, sorry.

      • J Daniel

        Neil,

        I would agree with you.  I think that they will try to make as many deals as they can for even more prospects.  I can see them signing a couple of lower free agents but nothing significant.

  • Tony Spumoni

    Theo is still under contract to Boston for 1 year, right?  And Jim Hendry is still under contract to the Cubs for 1 year, right?  
    So offer Jim Hendry and his 1 year ramaining contract to Boston as “compensation”.  
    That ought to do it!

  • http://chicagocubsonline.com/ Neil

    Cubs in AFL (10/15): DJ LeMahieu (3B): 3-for-5, 2RBI, R, BB, 2 SB;
    Junior Lake (SS): 3-for-5, HR, 4RBI, 2B, 3R, SB (leads league with seven stolen bases); Chris Carpenter: 0R, 1H, 5K, 0BB in 1.2IP
     

  • Miels17

    Give then Soriano and watch him try and play balls off the monster….funny.

  • cornerlots baseball

    I think the Cub organization should allow Epstein to bring all the staff he so desires from Boston. The success of a good GM depends on the caliber of people he has working with him. Limit Epstein’s  staff and it might be another hundred years before the Cubs go to the world series.