From the Wire … Cubs Acquire Matt Garza from Rays in Eight Player Trade

According to a report from Bruce Levine, the Cubs have acquired Matt Garza and two minor league players from the Rays for Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee, Brandon Guyer, Robinson Chirinos and Sam Fuld.

Levine is reporting the two players coming from Tampa are a minor league outfielder and a minor league infielder.

Updated – 11:10am CT – According to Bruce Miles, the Cubs will receive Fernando Perez, a switch-hitting outfielder in the deal.

Updated – 2:28pm CT – According to a report from ESPN 1000, the third player from the Rays in the deal will be a PTBNL (player to be named later).

The deal is not official but agreed upon. The eight player trade is still pending physicals.

The Cubs three of their top 10 prospects according to Baseball America … Chris Archer (1), Hak-Ju Lee (4) and Brandon Guyer (10). The Cubs also created three spots on their 40-man roster. With the addition of Garza and the subtraction of Archer, Guyer, Fuld and Chirinos, the Cubs 40-man roster now stands at 37 players.

Archer was the Cubs Minor League Pitcher of the Year … and Guyer was the Cubs Minor League Position Player of the Year.

Stay Tuned … will update when more information becomes available.

Updated – 11:10am CT – According to Bruce Miles, the Cubs will receive Fernando Perez, a switch-hitting outfielder in the deal. Perez, 27 (April 23, 1983), was the Rays seventh round pick in the 2004 draft.

If Perez is in the deal, he would be added to the Cubs 40-man roster (currently on Rays 40-man roster). With the addition of Garza and Perez, Cubs big league roster would stand at 38 players.

Fernando Perez’s Page on Baseball-Reference

Quote of the Day

"You can’t sit on a lead and kill the clock. You’ve got to give the other man his chance. That’s why baseball is the greatest game." - Earl Weaver
  • Bonestorm97

    Not sure I like this deal. It feels like the poor-man’s version of the old Yankees model: build a farm system and use it to acquire other team’s established players. Much as I like Garza, something about this just feels desperate, or like putting a Band-Aid over a bullet hole.

    • Tony

      I had an analogy on a thread 3 or 4 ago, or like 20 minutes ago, that JH has dug himself so deep into a hole, that he can’t see the sunlight. So he is doing the only thing he knows how to, dig deeper.

      All we can do now is hope Garza turns into the NL #1 ACE that we paid the Rays the right for, in this deal.

      • BleacherBum

        Hendry knows his job is on the line if the Cubs have another losing season. Yes, he gave up a lot, but we got a very, very good PROVEN pitcher in Garza. I am tired of waiting for prospects to pan out, and am glad to get a proven stud in Garza. Hendry may have just saved his job. We will have to wait and see how Garza does in the blue and white pinstripes, but I am excited about the deal. Especially considering we didn’t have to give up Brett Jackson.

        • studio179

          Hmm…you point out you are ‘tired of waiting for prospects to pan out’. Yet, you are excited the Cubs did not give up Brett Jackson.

        • paulcatanese

          Good article but given the way JH makes trades will we EVER see Brett Jackson? Every post I see begs for a leadoff hitter and I agree. Even though the deal is past tense I sure would have liked to see Lee in a Cub uniform,the short video of him excited me as seeing him lead off. As Aaron stated I hope its not another Brock scenerio.

        • Patrick_Schaefer

          Brandon Guyer is definitely no Slouch and I think we lost out big time in this deal. Fernando Perez sucks, and a ptbnl is probably 50,000 dollars.


      • stormyweather

        Garza would have to go 20-7 with a low 3 ERA for the next 2 years. 15-10 in Chicago wouldnt be good enough, particulary if any of the kids(I say watch Chirinos-hes a lot improved since bening moved to catcher) pans out to have a good Career.

        • Tony

          That’s why this was a bad deal.

    • Jwilson3985

      It’s Jim Hendry trying to save his damn job, that’s what it is. This is a horrendous deal, absolutely ludicrous. Whatever happened to “Chris Archer and Brett Jackson are untouchable”!?

      • M C George

        You HATERS need to realize not all “can’t miss” prospects make a dent into the majors. Garza is proven and he is young. Archer hasn’t done anything to prove he can pitch in the majors, Garza is coming out of the best division in baseball! We don’t have room for the others right now. Piss on them. Get off of Hendry’s back. This is a great trade for the Cubs! We now have a dominant 1, 2, 3 in our rotation. Enjoy it freaks! Jesus!

        • The Maven

          Thanks for checking in, Mrs. Hendry.

        • Jwilson3985

          Dominant?!?! Are you bloody serious? Check out Garza’s numbers, they are anything BUT dominant. Dominant is King Felix, Lincecum, Halladay, Cliff Lee, Wainwright, guys who miss bats. Look at Garza’s BABIP, ERA, WHIP, K/9IP…none of his numbers are anything close to “dominant.” Have you seen Archer pitch? I have, and he’s nasty. Garza doesn’t have an ‘out’ pitch. This deal wreaks of desperation. And that is never a good thing.

        • Jwilson3985

          The Cubs rotation isn’t even the 2nd best in the NL Central…the Brewers and Cardinals have a better rotation, and perhaps even the Reds. I guess you mean the Cubs rotation is ‘dominant’ like the Brewer’s was last year haha Jesus.

        • stormyweather

          Id hardly call Dumpster “dominant”-solid Ill grant, but not a TOR type. Good mid-rotation pitcher. Big Z is a big idiot. 8-0 in his last 11 starts last year with a 1.58ERA? AFTER the team was out of the race. Garza-great against mediocre Cleveland,Kansas City, etc. Absolutely sucked against the Red Sox,Yankees, and other contenders. Maybe he will improve in the NL, but the offense and defense also stinks on this team. No Carl Crawfords, BJ Uptons, or Evan Longorias with there gold gloves on this team.

        • BleacherBum

          Thank you for having my back, George. I don’t care what anyone says, Garza is a freakin stud and will tear up the NL central. The Cubs starting rotation just got a WHOLE LOT BETTER and we still have top prospects in the minors even after giving up Archer and Lee. You guys would have hated on Hendry had he not made this deal and say the Cardinals made a deal for him instead. How would you all have liked that?

  • Tony

    Welcome Matt Garza! – That is all we can do at this point, is hope that he can be a #1 starter in the NL, as we are paying as if he is a #1.

    JH better put a contract in front of him for 3-4 years (the max I would do for a SP).

    • studio179

      No need to give Garza a long term deal now. He is under team control.

      • Tony

        You don’t understand. He is under control, but his pay is not under control. He will be getting a raise to $6-$8M this year, and will go up in 2012 and 2013. JH can’t afford his pay in 2011, but 2012 and 2013 he can afford it. So he will give him a contract that lowers 2011 to a range he fit into budget and make up for it in 2012 and beyond.

        • studio179

          Or, Hendry makes other trades to get Garza’s arbitration raise in budget for 2011. I do understand the 2011 payroll situation and get what you are saying. But to offer Garza the 3-4 years now, he would have to accept a REALLY LOW 2011 salary. In doing so, Hendry would have to make it up on the back end with a larger pay day in years 2-3 or years 2-4, depending on the terms…kind of the same old same old.

          I think Hendry should get Garza in the 2011 budget without back loading a long term deal. If the Cubs want to buy out a couple team controlled years next year with a good deal for Garza buying out years and a little bit cheaper for the team, fine. I understand every year costs more, especially for starting pitching. I just don’t think Hendry should go long term yet. The back loading for a low 2011 salary scares me. You might be right though. Even if Hendry moves a back end type of pitcher, it will not make up the difference Garza’s raise will take up in payroll on the Cubs budget for 2011. Not unless a contract like say Fukudome is moved (unlikely). Hendry might have forced himself in a back loaded contract situation.

  • Jay_mann23

    this i terrible i cannot believe they would give up so much of their talent for a number 2 at best pitcher to go along with the number 3 and lower pitchers we have in our rotation…seems like way too much!!!

    • Dabears237315

      great trade jh!!!!! and for all you wanna be GM’S remember you’ll didn’t want to trade pie,hill,patterson,etc all have been busts . the whole cub nation was mad when they traded derosa what has he done since he was a cub ? remember theses are all prospects and that’s all garza is proven him self 15 to 20 wins in the toughest division and over 200 inng’s enough said great job trader ” jim ”

      • Tony

        For all you wanna be stats guys. Garza is proven himself to win 15-20 games in the toughest division and over 200 innings.

        2006 – 3
        2007 – 5
        2008 – 11
        2009 – 8
        2010 – 15

        The most he has ever won was 15!!!!!!!

        Only 2x has he had double digits in Wins.

        Proven 15-20 game winner…I don’t think so.

        Once again,

        • Jwilson3985

          Wins are a horrible stat to measure pitching quality, just look at who won the AL Cy Young this year–Felix Hernandez, who had 13W. However, if you look at the more important #s [6.6K/9IP, 8.5H/9IP, 1.1HR/9IP (will go up at Wrigley), 2.8BB/9IP, 1.25WHIP, ERA+107…], none of them say “This guy is deadly.” In fact, they say “He’s a #3 starter.”

          Also, the Rays have had awesome defense the last several years which undoubtedly helped Garza, whereas the Cubs defense has been horrendous.

          • Tony

            Wins are not an end all, but on an AL team (where the pitcher isn’t lifted for a pinch-hitter) and on a team that has won 277 games over the last 3 years, Garza has 34 wins. or just over 11/year. Not exactly ACE material.

          • Gary J

            In 2009 he finished in the top 10 in the AL in both Ks and K/9 – last year the pitching coach there was having him pitch more to contact – partially because the Rays have good young defenders. He has good stuff and is better than a #3 – maybe not be an ace (yet) but not mid rotation either.

  • paulcatanese

    Things are happening faster than I can type. If this is a deal all I can say to these kids is good luck and be thankful that you are rid of the JH curse. Have great careers. Garza, its not your fault you are here,good luck,do the best you can,and Cub fans will be in youre corner.

    • Neil

      Paul, the deal is all but official. Just waiting on the minor leaguers the Cubs are getting.

      • paulcatanese

        Neil,thanks for the response. In addition you were really on top of this one,ahead of all the other info on the computer. Great job.

  • Matt R

    get hendry the hell out of chicago i cant believe we gave up chirinos and archer what the hell

    • Ripsnorter1

      JimClueless should have never been here in the first place. Boy, did he empty the system for Garza!

  • Chuck

    Looks like I will be going up to Port Charlotte to see these guys in spring training and this summer to watch the Stone Crabs (Rays high Class A team). I wonder if Tim Beckham (Rays #1 draft choice a few years back was involved in the trade?). Having sen the Stonecrabs play the last few years, they do have some good minor league playes. Personally, I think the Rays got the best end of the deal.

  • Gary J

    I know I’ve been saying that trading for Garza would be a good thing given the right price – but I think this might be pushing it.

    That said though…

    I’ve said it before – Garza – 27 – under team control for three more years (arbitration) – 2008 ALCS MVP – 2006 USA Today Minor League player of the Year – in 2009 6th in AL in k/9 and 9th in total Ks (last year the pitching coach was having him pitch to contact) – 15 game winner in AL east

    and the Rays pitching coach said last year that he has the best pure stuff on their staff.

    He’s a #2 right now – while still growing into his potential. This is a GOOD addition to the team.

    I like the guy – and given the finish last year I truly think he could be a difference maker THIS YEAR. I do not think this year is a lost year. After the manager shift last year, they had the second best record in the league and added an upgrade at first (yes – he hit 198 -but that’s not going to happen again and he’s averaged 36 homers the last four years with gold glove D), Wood added to the pen and then swapping out Lilly for Garza… this team CAN contend.

    Even with all the negativity on the board, I can safely say that noone on here can honestly say this team played at anywhere near their potential on paper last year. Experts were picking them to win the division to start the year (and they flopped miserably) but maybe it was simply time for Lou to go.

    But yeah – even I think it was too much to give up. That’s a whopper of a package. If it is indeed what it ends up being. Really interested int he minor leaguers coming back – might be a way for us to give up top prospects at blocked positions (SS and C) and get some of their blocked ones back (maybe 3b for example)

    Bravo to Tony_Hall for his statement – all we can do at this point is say Welcome Mr. Garza.


    • Tony

      As I have tried to tell you, to get Garza, we would have to pay the Rays for a #1 pitcher. Matt Garza is now our ACE and #1 pitcher, until ARcher…I’m sorry, Cashner, McNutt, etc prove they are a true #1.

      Also, once a deal is done, and a player is a Cub, I will support them, until they prove they don’t deserve a roster spot.

      • paulcatanese

        Tony,totaly agree.

  • Jay_mann23

    nobody in there right mind picked the cubs to win the division last year and no one picks them to win it this year either… We have a weak offense unless Tyler Colvin, and Castro, and Pena have breakout years. Oh and add Ramerez to that list

    • stormyweather

      With this teams lack of speed and athleticism-you need 4 guys to be >350 obp and need 25-30 HRS from Pena, Ramirez and Sorry Ano. Youd also need Dewitt to play well above his carerr norms so far. Only then would you even come close to contending, assuming the pitching staff holds together.

  • BosephHeyden

    There is no middle ground to this trade: either Jim Hendry made this team a serious, 100% more dangerous threat to the entire National League or he just sunk the franchise for the foreseeable future. This trade is his legacy. And it isn’t on Garza: I am 90% positive Garza will do exceptional with the Cubs (see my Carlos Silva AL-to-NL rule last year). The problem is that, of those guys he just traded, a few of them were major league-ready. And if the guys in front of them at their positions do not do well, then the problem becomes “who is there to force them to do better”. Now, if Castro winds up going into a big sophomore slump and doesn’t recover, there’s no one at short to threaten his position. If Soto doesn’t produce, sure he’ll get replaced by Koyie Hill, but that’s proven to not solve anything, and that’s the route the Cubs have shown they will go.

    The Cubs have to win now, because if they don’t, getting rid of Hendry will solve very little (though it will make us feel better).

    • Tony

      JH has 9 lives, or maybe more, because he has been doing this same, make or break decisions, and they don’t work out. Yet he never seems to break…

    • paul catanese

      Good post,my thoughts exactly.A good system must have people in the wings pushing. where are they now? . w

  • PleaseStopLosing

    We gave up our Minor League Pitcher of the Year (Archer), our Minor League Player of the Year (Guyer) and our Shortstop and Leadoff Hitter of the Future with Speed that we NEVER have for an above average pitcher in a year that we have no chance of contending because of our worthless slow old offense….!!!!!

    Wow. I am furious. It’s official– I hate Jim Hendry and I will not be attending Wrigley or buying Cubs merchandise for years to come.

    This franchise makes losing look easy.

    • MANNY


      • Tony


        You can’t be mad about a move and still be a fan of the team.

        I don’t like what they gave up, wanted them to build through the farm, like TR told us when he bought the club.

        I will still root for the Cubs, regardless of the moves, that doesn’t mean that I have to agree with the moves.

  • Dproehl

    I love this deal. We were able to get Garza without giving up Jackson or Vitters or Carpenter. We dont’ need Lee or Chironos (since we have Castro and Soto) but we do need a proven stud pitcher and that is what Garza is. The Cubs never make deals to get proven young talent like Garza because we don’t want to give up prospects that never end up panning out for us. Great job Hendry, you have redeemed yourself in my book.

    • Patrick_Schaefer

      I heard the deal on break at work and was hoping vitters was one of the prospects and that Lee, Guyer, and Archer weren’t!

      • stormyweather

        Tampa doesnt need Vitters-Longoria is still just 25 and has a team friendly 5 yr contract.

    • Woozchy

      I wasn’t happy with Lee being included. If one of our other middle infield prospects had been substituted for Lee I think the trade would have been much more equitable. It’s gonna be two or three years though before we really will know who got the better of the deal.

  • Aaron

    Wow…this might very well go down as Brock for Broglio (with Lee in this deal). Garza and Broglio, not only were similar age, but just take a look at Broglio’s stats:

    EERILY similar folks….EERILY

    In fact, I’d argue that Broglio was actually better than Garza at the time of the trade.

    What blows my mind, is the inclusion of Hak-Ju Lee in this trade, especially given the fact we have been searching high and low for a true leadoff man for pretty much….well….the better part of 20 years.

    I am not too worried about losing Chirinos, who I saw as a valuable back-up, and I am not worried about losing Guyer, as he is oft-injured and his minor league stats resemble a roller coaster…but he would’ve been a valuable 4th/5th OF for us. Too bad we missed out on Hermida, Chris Carter, and others, but oh well. I am also not sweating about losing Fuld.

    So, the way you have to look at this deal is Lee and Archer for Garza. Would you do that deal for a 2 or 3 starter at best?!? I probably wouldn’t…not even just 2 players. The reason is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO simple. Archer will be 22 next year. Lee will be 20 next year. Both of them would’ve cost the MLB minimum and Garza is only going to cost exponentially more.

    Archer throws mid 90’s heat just like Garza….and just like Garza, can struggle with control at times. But unlike Garza, he has NOT logged a considerable amount of innings, and would be less prone to injury going forward.

    I am expecting that Garza will tank, and an injury will pop up. I am expecting his character issues to surface, and I am fully expecting Lee, Archer, and even Chirinos to thrive with the Rays.

    This deal will come back to bite us in the ass, especially if Castro slumps his sophomore year and LeMahieu doesn’t take the next step forward.

    I hate this deal, and Cubs fans will soon learn just how bad it really is.

    As I’ve said the past few years….what in the hell makes ANYONE trust Hendry right now?!? What….name it?!? Why is he still allowed to make critical decisions.

    *Z, Dempster, Garza

    That’s your everyday lineup.

    Can it compete with….

    *not to mention: Carpenter, Wainwright, Westbrook, and Garcia

    Janish-SS (or Renteria if they sign him)
    *not to mention: Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Chapman

    *not to mention: Greinke, Gallardo, Marcum, Wolf

    Sorry, but we have 3 teams in the division that are exponentially better offensively, PLUS, in every case, their top 4 starters could rival our top 3…meaning, that they have 4 starters capable of being at the very least, ranked in our top 3. After our top 3, we have Gorzelanny, Wells, and Silva to round out the rotation…making you scratch your head as to why this trade makes us better.

    So…..we can all agree that our offense was a disaster last year, and that should’ve been the focus this offseason. Furthermore, I think everyone would agree that our strength in our system was most definitely in pitching. Why then would we deal a weakness (depth in position players) for a strength (pitching)?!? And what makes matters worse is this…..we have added a .196 hitter (Pena) as our ONLY offensive upgrade. LOL…..are you kidding me?!?!?

    Hendry is a moron and is not qualified to lead this team any longer….(as if he ever were)

    • BillyFinT


      The Broglio to Garza comparison is awfully real. I clicked LIKE on all your posts here. Garza is a hair better with more strikeouts, but the end result, in the pitching effectiveness of both, in getting batters out, are quite similar (ERA+, WHIP).

      I’m really indifferent to this trade. I don’t know what to think of it. I’ll say this, though, in one of my fantasy teams last year, Garza was picked up and dropped. All the playoff teams in our league didn’t own him.

      I’m not saying that he’s not a good stud, and on the contrary. I’m just saying he has his limit.

      And if the Cubs cannot net a cost-effective extension with the arbitration-ready Garza, like Tony said earlier, then there’s no way GM Hendry makes a move for the corner power.

      I guess you can feel relieved, because if this is the case, and Garza does not become another Javier Vasquez (boy, he was good in that ONE year with the Braves, despite being average in the AL throughout his career), well, the probability added is rocketing for Hendry be fired before his contract ends 2012.


  • Aaron

    and I just wanted to add that this minor league pitcher and minor league outfielder better be top flight, and NOT like a Jeff Stevens and a younger version of Sam Fuld in return…as will most definitely happen….after all, anyone know what happened to Justin Sellers…how about Ryne White? LOL…those are guys we got for Fox and Heilman, who were released immediately, or later on.

    We need bona fide prospects at 1B, 3B, and corner OF.

    This deal actually makes us worse, because now LeMahieu will probably be forced into action at 2B instead of 3B or 1B, as Lee was expected to push Castro to 2B, thus creating a very exciting middle IF. So, unless LeMahieu starts hitting 15+hr, we will NOT see him at 3B or 1B.

    Tell me if these prospects excite you, because they’re our future at corner OF and corner IF:

    corner OF: Snyder, Lahair (both are too old to even be considered prospects), Golden, Ha *Jackson is a CF just FYI

    Corner IF: Spencer, Bour, Ridling, and possibly Flaherty, M. Smith, and Vitters. Bour probably has the best chance of developing legitimate power at the MLB level, but it’s doubtful he’ll ever get a chance

    Point is, my guess is that the 2 other players received are a middling relief prospect, and an OF prospect on par with Fuld. That’s a pathetic trade, as we likely could’ve had Garza for just Archer, Lee, and Chirinos.

    So….what that means, is that OF received, MUST be better than Guyer. Am I making sense here? Because otherwise, you’re just giving Guyer away, and that’d be extremely foolish, given the dearth of OF talent in our system

    • paulcatanese

      Both posts ,right on the money.

  • RICK


    • Ripsnorter1

      Jim Clueless gave all his money away to Silva, Bradley, Byrd, Z, Soriano, Dempster, and a few other losers. He can’t buy a pitcher because he’s broke.

  • Matt12882003

    so neil would garza be a num 1 starter or 2 this year and what else are cubs looking for a bullpen guy or a left handed bat and what do you think about edmonds coming back?

    • Neil

      Matt, I’m still tracking this deal. I will respond later. Thanks for your patience.

    • Ripsnorter1

      I’ll answer for Neil: he’s a cottonpicking #3 starter behind Z and Dempster.
      The only way he moves up is if the Yankees buy Z.

    • paulcatanese

      Matt,Edmonds should have never left.

    • Neil

      Matt, Garza should begin the season as the Cubs number 3 behind Z and Dempster. As for where he finishes or begins 2012 depends on Zambrano.

      I’ve heard the Cubs are still interested in Jason Frasor but I’m not sure how they could afford him right now.

  • Tony

    RT @thekapman Jim Callis of BA agrees with everyone I have spoken to. “Cubs made a solid deal. Gave up depth and good players. No stars. about a minute ago

    Lets hope that the national experts are right, and the JH parlayed the success of Archer and Guyer and the hype of Lee to get Garza. We will all know better in a few years…

  • cubsklm

    Cubs supposedly moved resources to the farm system from the MLB team. “We’re going to build the team from the farm system.” Now we know why. JH just sold the farm.I like Garza, but the price was very high.

    Now go get Chris Davis.

    • Tony

      JH needs to move payroll now, to be able to afford Garza this year (unless TR raises his budget #).

      So what is next is either a dumping of salary (giving away another young player to pay someone to take on a bad contract) or a long term deal to Garza, to give him security, and it will have a low 2011 salary, to help JH afford him now, but will pay him #1 money for 2012-2015. And of course, it will come with the standard, no-trade clause.

    • stormyweather

      For who-Texas wanted Chirinos as one of the return pieces. Trading Castillo is now out of the question, hes needed for depth, or do the Cubs know something about Clevenger that the scouts are missing?

  • Cloycub

    Fernando Perez is a potential Leadoff hitter…mark it down.

    • Tony

      For a AA team maybe.

      220 average last year in AAA with an OBP of 280.

      He is aleady 27 years old.

      He looked good in 06-08, not sure what happened, but he must have been injured, since 09 was limited and 2010 was not a full season.

      • Tony

        Maybe this is it.

        During 2009 spring training, Perez was injured on March 10 during a game against the Toronto Blue Jays after trying to make a diving catch. He left the game, and missed significant time during the 2009 season. He was activated from the disabled list and was called up in the roster expansions and filled in for the injured BJ Upton in September. He played the entire 2010 season with the AAA Durham Bulls.

        • Ripsnorter1

          He’s nothing. He won’t see Wrigley Field in your lifetime.

          • Ripsnorter1

            He’ll be 28 on April 23, 2011. Do you read me? He ain’t no prospect at all.

            You just gotta give Jim CLueless his due. He’s certainly the most incompetent GM in MLB.

      • stormyweather

        He had a wrist injury.

    • paulcatanese

      Any Stats?

    • The Maven

      Who will he sit down, Soriano, Byrd, or Colvin???????????

  • Neil

    Just a reminder to everyone to read the CCO’s twitter feed. A lot of good info …

    • Neil

      And, I will be updating the main article as info comes in

  • Gary J

    By the way Neil – love the twitter feed on the side of the page – hadn’t noticed it before :-)

    Jim Callis of BA agrees with everyone I have spoken to. “Cubs made a solid deal. Gave up depth and good players. No stars

    Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus says Cubs gave up solid players but no superstars.Rays got depth guys according to him

    John Heyman cubs rotation impressive now w/ garza, zambrano, dempster, cashner as top 4

    Buster Olney More from evaluators:Archer is key to deal;Lee high upside,but real questions. Guyer more liked by stats guys than scouts

    Also Olney – general perception of Cubs-Garza deal from rival evaluators:Cubs give up a lot of volume,but no real cant-miss star prospect


    The perception among the experts is that it’s a solid deal in both directions. The key to the deal being Archer

    • stormyweather

      What id like to ask Goldstien-what makes you think Cashner, who was shaky the first 2 months as a reliever, a “solid” starter? He has Potential, but w/o experience the word “unproven” comes to mind.

  • stormyweather

    You gotta be kidding. Both Archer AND Lee had to in the deal? One or the other I can understand, not BOTH. You trade your best prospects to get a top -of -the rotation type, not a #2 or 3. Hendry AGAIN got suckered. Hed better hope Garza goes 20-7 with a Low 3 ERA.

  • Aaron

    ha ha….I was spot on yet again that the OF received would be like Fuld….LOL. This deal makes absolutely NO sense with that tidbit of information. Unless we get Matt Moore as the pitcher in the deal….which the Cubs have a better likelihood of winning a World Series than that happening…then this deal was yet another loss and slap in the face to Cubs fans, desperate to see a winner.

    Does Hendry completely disregard what every other team is doing right now?!?

    For those in support of this deal, please tell me this….

    1) Out of Cashner, Archer, McNutt, Carpenter, Jackson, etc. don’t you think at least one of them would produce what Garza does? I find it hard to believe one of those 5 wouldn’t

    2) What’s one thing the Reds and Brewers rosters have in common? They’re both predominantly homegrown lineups AND pitching staffs. How about even the Rays, whom we just made this trade with? What about the Twins? The Braves? How about the Rockies? All of those teams seem to be in contention…Doesn’t Hendry notice trends at all.

    3) This still doesn’t solve problem NUMBER ONE which was a poor offense

    While Lee was the only surefire MLB guy of that offensive group of himself, Guyer, and Chirinos, I still think we got hosed in this deal.

    Fernando Perez…..I am literally laughing my ass off right now. He is coming off a season at AAA, nevertheless, where he barely hit over the Mendoza Line, and his slash line was .223/.280/.299……….LOL are you kidding me?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!? And I believe Miles was saying he could compete with Colvin for playing time. LOL….He’ll be DFA’d out of spring training when they finally realize, as they did with Gathright, that you simply cannot steal first base.

    I think Hendry might’ve confused this Fernando with another Fernando (Martinez) of the Mets, who actually is young and has a decent shot at producing at the MLB level. Perez will be 28 at the start of next season….WOW!!!!!!!!1

    We are heading in the WRONG direction with this trade. Doesn’t Hendry realize that teams grow their own starters, then trade excess starting pitching for position player talent? Pitchers are far more projectable, and that’s why you can do that.

    In 2003, one of the major reasons we won was because we had a true leadoff hitter (Lofton), power hitters in Alou and Sosa, and a rotation anchored by 3 homegrown players in Wood, Prior, and Zambrano that were young 26, 22, and 22 years old respectively.

    Flash forward to 2011, and we will likely have just Zambrano and Wells as homegrown talent in the rotation with: Z, Dempster, Garza, Gorzelanny as the other pitchers. It’s possible we could deal Wells or Gorzelanny and insert Cashner, which would give us another homegrown player. But youth is not on our side, as Z would be 30, Dempster 34, Wells 28, Gorzelanny 28, and Garza 27.

    Fasten your seat belts, it’s about to get really ugly

    • Ripsnorter1

      Your post yesterday spelled it all out exactly right. Jim Clueless should have read it.

      BTW Jim Clueless is stuck on building a winner with “pitching and defense” and “Good clubhouse guys” (except of course, Z, Bradley, Aram and now Garza!). Forget the offense! We don’t need to score any runs offensively. If we can just recover a fumble and return it for a touchdown, we’ll have it made. Now Jim Clueless is trying to trade for a kick returner. . . . .

    • Tony

      But you know that Fernando Perez is now on the 25 man roster for 2011. That way JH can say he got 2 useful players.

      • SlyDiaz

        He was coming off of a shoulder injury this year and that is why his numbers were not the best.

    • Dan27


      Check out Fernando Perez’s minor league stats. In 2007 he hit .300 with an OBP of .420 and stole 40 bases. In 2008 he had a very nice year at AAA and then was called up and hit .250 for the Rays while filling in for an injured BJ Upton. He made the Rays playoff roster. In March 2009 he dislocated his wrist while diving for a ball in the outfield, had surgery and missed 5 months. When he came back they found out he also tore his labrum and had shoulder surgery in the fall of 2009. His 2010 stats are not an accurate assessment of his potential as he was coming back from 2 very serious injuries. He was rated in the top 15 of Rays prospects 2007-2009. He is currently healthy and if he can regain his form he could be a steal.

      I look at the trade in 3 parts:

      1. Garza for Archer and Lee which is a win for the Cubs. Garza is a very solid MLB SP which is what Archer hopes to become. Lee is a solid prospect but is still 3 years away with no guarantees he will hit at the MLB level.

      2. Perez for Guyer which is a win for the Cubs. Guyer has had one good minor league season, Perez has had 4.

      3. Young lefty pitcher for Chirinos which is a win for the cubs as Chirinos is 27, blocked, and the Cubs have 3 other catchers on the 40 man roster.

      Fuld is a nonissue as he would not have made the team and is out of options.

      • Gary J

        Nicely stated Dan – I’d read that Perez was a speed guy but hadn’t dug into the stats. Sounds like if healthy he’s a possibility to make the team out of spring as the #5 OF (and occasional leadoff guy when someone’s getting an off day). Probably an 8th inning baserunning replacement… which isn’t a bad thing. It’s a team need anyway.

  • Scott Rathbun

    It would have been nice to land Zobrist in the deal with all we gave up. He would look great at 2B on the Northside or super utility.

  • Chuck

    Will Matt Garza be at the Cubs Convention?

  • Scott Rathbun

    It would have been nice to land Zobrist in the deal with all we gave up. He would look great at 2B or super utility on the Northside.

  • Aaron

    My guess is that we will open up the season now with this roster:


    Cashner/Wells-24/28 *whoever loses out on starter

    C-Soto-28, Hill-32
    2B-DeWitt-25, Barney-25
    3B-ARAM-33, Baker-30
    CF-Byrd-33, Perez-28
    RF-Colvin-25, Fukudome-34

    Folks, not only is that a very old team, but there’s NO star power whatsoever, so you MUST ask yourself…..How exactly does this deal improve our chances of competing next season? If it doesn’t, then why mortgage the future?!?

    • Matt12882003

      cashner will be starting and gorz will be in pen or traded

    • Ripsnorter1

      You watch–Gorzelanny won’t be in a Cubs’ uniform in 2011. It says so right here . . . .

      • stormyweather

        The Mets and Tigers seem to like him. Maybe the Cubs can get Sizemore from Detroit for Gorz. At least he has potential at 2nd.

  • Mark

    Well, we just gave up 3 of our best YOUNG players for Matt Garza. I hope this works….. meaning that Archer and Lee and probably Guyer are busts like Patterson, Pie and that SS we had (I forgot the name) were. The Cubs’ farm system are notorious for counting on young guys to step up and fail. Fuld is getting old and deserves to be on a team, playing. I just don’t know what the hurry was to give up so much youth for Garza. We should be looking for 2012 already because we’re losing a few HUGE contracts. We’ll see, Henrdy took a chance, on a proven big time starter.I kind of respect that.

  • Ripsnorter1

    Your roster FORGET SAMARDZIJA. He will most certainly be on the team in 2011.

  • Bo

    What an idiot. Hendry blows his wad in a year we can hardly compete. I am done with him.

    • stormyweather

      Why couldnt Ricketts get Alderson when he was available?

      • sadowski

        Wait till you that dog and pony act in New York this summer!!!

  • cdc

    hendry is simply the most stupid gm ever,….ever

  • daverj

    I think we may have given up a bit too much, but I can’t understand why everyone thinks it was a terrible deal. We didn’t give up a single prospect with superstar upside (except maybe Lee and he is a long ways away from the majors). We have Garza for three years, we held onto B Jackson and Cashner … not so bad.

  • cubs1967

    YES!——4 suspects for a 15-10 pitcher……..who won’t face a DH or the yankees/red sox 36 times…….and we are a bitchin’……..WTF?

    let’s review what we have here:

    a 27 yr old C/Chirinios who have NO MLB exp and is not better than castillo or soto.

    a 25 yr old OF/Guyer who is NOT better than jackson or colvin and has no MLB exp. Sori is not the LF answer—but guyer’s bat is not either.

    I don’t like moving Lee…..becuz Flaherty is already too old and Lematheui reminds me of Blarney….a UTIL player……..but could be mcgehee.

    archer………first, most everyone on this site has bitched that we got NOTHING for derosa… why is anyone mad………..second, we still have cashner, mcnutt, coleman, carpenter and jackson so there is plenty more.

    garza-demp-bigZ-cashner-wells/gorz/coleman is much deeper than any of the brew/cards/reds.

    wood/marshall-marmol is the best threesome bullpen in the Central.

    offense sucks………but pitching wise Cubs are in great shape.

    And as Olney/Baseball America/and others have stated…..there was NO stud is this group the cubs gave up…………

    103 yrs and counting……………

    • stormyweather

      If you can add Chris Carpenter to the bullpen mix, they might be like the Padres pen was last year. Kerry has to throw strikes, tho. Rivera bailed him out several times with the Yankees.

  • daverj

    Another point … if (1) the Cubs take the salary they have coming off the books and sign Pujols (they’ll have to overpay long term, but that’s the cost of bringing in a free agent) and resign ARam, and (2) Castro, Colvin and Cashner continue to develop, the team suddenly looks pretty good in 2012.

    • stormyweather

      Something tells me the Cards will not let Pujols get away. Hes to the Cards what Banks and Santo were to the Cubs. The PR nightmare for them would be hard to overcome.

  • Cloycub13

    Alright I have to chime in here and amazingly it is not negative towards Hendry.

    I have said it for a while but the modus operande for the Cubs this year, based on their offense is this, Have solid starting pitching that keeps them in games til about the 6th or 7th, Hope that their offense does something, and then have the back end of the Bullpen with Wood, Marshall and Marmol dominate!

    Garza, Dempster, Zambrano, Cashner, Wells does part one of that equation on a daily basis. If Pena, Ramirez, Castro, Colvin, Soto and Soriano contribute at any level the offense can at least scratch out some runs, and the back end of the Pen is nasty! This trade makes that equation work!!! It also rivals the Marcum addition, and noone can dispute that, and many were up in arms that Milwauke got infinitely better by acquiring Marcum, what makes this any different? Yes Milwaukee also got Greinke and him and Marcum make them much better, but the additions of Garza and Cashner to the rotation make the Cubs better IMO.

    As far as what the Cubs gave up:

    Archer was, as Aaron so aptly pointed out, not in any prospect lists when the Cubs acquired him. He caught on fire this year and was the Buzz name, but so was Rich Hill, Mike Harkey etc! Archer was a suspect to quote Rip.

    Hak Ju Lee-Yes I dreamed as many that Lee would be the leadoff hitter, and make our middle infield with Castro dynamic as hell…But when? 2013 is when most of you said he would be ready. How does that help us now? And again there is no guarantee that Lee is what we all hope he would be.

    Personally I like this trade, especially Perez (discount him due to injuries, but I believe he is now one of the fastest guys in the Cubs system) and I believe it allows the Cubs to be competitive in 2011! Not world series, and more than likely not division, but better and at least watchable. I have gone from having no hope at all to having a glimmer.

    Go Cubs!

    • paul catanese

      Hope you are right,but thats lot of different things that have to go plus in one direction to make it happen. We all can have hope.

    • Tony

      Cloy – I know how you think. I really think it is the high of a trade that is making you think this way.

      You really can’t be glad that they moved 4 good prospects, to just be competitive, not a WS or even a division, but just competitive.

      You make this trade, when it puts you over the top, not just better than the Pirates and Astros.

    • stormyweather

      B Jax will hit leadoff, providing he comes even close to the Grady Sizemore Comps some scouts seem to give him.

  • jw

    I’ll offer my opinion in 3 years LOL.

    Possible Good points; If Archer was the number 1 prospect and was too valuable to give up then you must also give some credit to Hendry for acquiring him in the DeRosa deal. Garza is not an Ace but he has proven himself on the MLB stage in the toughest division in baseball. Archer and Lee have not played at the MLB level and need to correct some flaws…there is no guarantee either will be productive at the MLB level. The Cubs have a competitive pitching staff for the NLC. Zambrano will not assault Garza because they are not on the field at the same time. The Cubs know their talent well enough to know they are not risking too much. Ronnie will be helping from above.

    Possible Bad points; Archer has real potential…you can’t teach heat. Lee flashes signs that he may become a top tier shortshop and difference maker in a position the Cubs desperately need SS and lead-off. If Tampa organization knows talent better than Cubs this could be much worse than Juan Pierre 2. The Cubs could be competitve in the NLC prompting the trade of more talent at the deadline and a possible contract renewal for Hendry. Fernandez and PTBN are only thrown in to ease the guilt of stealing this talent

    • stormyweather

      I heard Olney talking about how the Yankees vets would deal with Zambrano. Then I heard Larry Bowa tell him that Zambrano was 6’5″ and 270 lbs and built like Adam Dunn. Makes sense. The Cubs couldnt control him last yr. The stankees wouldnt do it either.

  • cc002600

    They should move Cashner back to bullpen.

    Potentially that could be excellent bullpen.

    I really like Garza. But I find it interesting that other teams seem to want the type of player that we never seem to develop or trade for. (speed, high OBP, high avg, good defense, good contact hitters).

    ….so when we finally have a couple of guys like that, we trade them (Guyer, Lee, Chrinos)

    But what does that say ?? Those players to me are more valuable than guys who are opposite (power, no speed, low OBP, high k)…..which is usually what we have…..and why we haven’t won 102 years.


    • stormyweather

      Becomes a question of where you put Carpenter. Carpenter throws 95-100 out of the pen as a 2 inning setup type. Throws low 90s with above average breaking ball and a still work-in-progress change. Right now, if Cashner can show me 3 solid pitches, start him. hes more needed there. Carpenter is similiar to Cashner as a releif pitcher , and has better control.

  • RDiaz

    I can’t believe all the pessimism… as Kenny says “prospects are suspects” (felix pie, bobby hill, rich hill, etc). Garza will be a stud coming from the toughest division in MLB to the NL! Pure and simple. We’re giving up quantity for quality and that works for me!

  • Kev

    The only hope cub fans had this winter was the promising future (supposedly) of the farm system. Now I know that the Cubs management and staff knows what they are working with in terms of talent and depth in the minors. I just don’t understand how we give away 3 top ten prospects.
    If there is one thing we can learn from the Rays recent success is that winning needs to be promoted within. Grow your talent, teach them how to win, and let the young guys show you what they are made of.
    Where can I get my Tampa Bay Rays hat?
    OH YEA..Along with my Lee Rays jersey?

  • paulcatanese

    Neil,this one of the most exciting day of comments that I have looked at. Great job.

    • Neil

      Thanks Paul … Talkin’ during the season can be very interesting, especially when the comments are in the triple digits.

      • Gramps

        Nothing like a trade to stir up all the fans! To me it looks like both sides made a good deal. Here’s hoping Garza works out well for the Cubs.

  • Tony

    For all you wanna be stats guys. Garza is proven himself to win 15-20 games in the toughest division and over 200 innings.

    2006 – 3
    2007 – 5
    2008 – 11
    2009 – 8
    2010 – 15

    The most he has ever won was 15!!!!!!!

    Only 2x has he had double digits in Wins.

    Proven 15-20 game winner…I don’t think so.

    The 15 wins was on a team that won 96 games.

    • paulcatanese

      Tony,,good points.One thing though,Perez is a switch hitter and very fast accordingnto Twitter and has as you pointed out hurt diving for a ball. Any positive things about him?It’s what we need though NO ANOTHER OUTFIELDER. Where do we put these guys?On paper a switch hitter,speedy,sounds good what are your’e thoughts?

      • daverj

        In addition to being a speed demon, Perez is also a very good defensive outfielder. At a minimum, he should make a great 5th outfielder who can pinch run, act as a late inning defensive replacement, and make an occasional start.

        I recall a couple years ago, a number of posters at CCO wanted to trade for Perez and make him out stating CF and lead-off hitter. His luster has fallen off due to injuries, but he still has the same upside.

  • Cloycub13

    Any update on who the pitcher is that the Cubs obtained?

    • Neil

      Nothing official, but it is a PTBNL according to ESPN 1000

  • Scapogro

    I have never been on the band wagon for Hendry and his deals. But none of us know what is going to happen, that is why we play the game. Although because of last year and the previous 102 years, we as humans cling to the hope that propsects are the answer, but in truth we don’t know. What we do know is that we now have a new starter on our team and should embrace him as we have Woody….Go Garza….Remember every player understands the added pressure of playing for a franchise that has not won the series since Jesus was in short pants.

  • Kingdomusa

    This trade could be the end of the jim hendry era. If lee starts @ ss & leads off, if archer is in the rotation with a winning record, & Garza fails to produce, most cub fans will get there wish. Quade is a vets coach so he is in a comfort zone now. Ryno would have been a better choice to coach the prospects & the cubs couldn’t go young because the pressure is on JH and thats when he does stupid things. He will never be in the upper echalon of baseball GM’s because he folds when the pressure is on. He takes what they offer. Does anyone know who the 3 pitching prospects are & their stats on the D Lee trade to Atlanta. Another poor judgement move as there were better prospects in the system that we couldn’t figure out with our illustrious brain trust. All said & done, Ricketts is about making Wrigley a palace & Hendry is about win now & the hell with the future as I need a job. Lee leading off & playing short with castro @ 2b. Another scarey thought, hendry trading our only young lefty in Gorzelanny. This will haunt us also. For those who call the “Whopper” Hendry clueless are absolutely right.

    • stormyweather

      Robinson Lopez is the only one with any buzz from the DLee trade, and even hes marginal. I beleive he will be starting in Daytoba this year,

  • Cloycub13

    Tony I know where you are coming from. I normally am all about the youth and belief in prospects! I normally would admonish a deal like this, and Hendry for making it. And I completely understand your point about the fact that you make this deal when you are close not making this deal to make you somewhat competitive. I get all of that!

    And as I digested what actually occurred I found myself battling with my normal Hendry disgust and what I think really is a good trade.

    Reasoning-Archer is one of many in our system. Mcnutt, Jackson, Carpenter are still in the system. Hendry did not give up the farm, he gave up one pitcher who may or may not be anything at all and who really was a nobody til this last year. Did he sell high??

    Chirinos-Was never going to be in the Cubs system. This was made blatantly obvious at the end of last year when he never saw time, and Hill played. And again there are other Catching Prospects in the system.

    Lee-Again no guarantees here. And many on here argued that he would not even be close until 2013.

    Guyer-Yes he was intriguing, but he is an aging prospect who had a really good year last year. Again a sell high situation?

    Fuld- Love the gritty gutty Sam Fuld but he is not a maker or a breaker in any stretch.

    What the Cubs got-A pitcher who has improved continuously, gone over 200IP each of the last 3 years, gave up less hits than IP, has an electric arm, and is under team control for 3 more years is coming from the very difficult AL East to a lesser league and division, and the AL to NL transition automatically improves Garza’s numbers.

    I do have a high from the fact that the Cubs made a deal, and many experts out there like Buster Olney and other people who get paid to do what I wish I could do agree with me. This deal dealt quantity for quality and the Cubs landed a solid ML starter who has post season experience and was a series MVP in the ALCS. I know it is hard to say that the Cubs will be competitive this year, but that is due to a lack of offense, not pitching, and the Cubs now have pitching in spades. How is that a bad thing?

    We’ll see the reality of this trade in 3+ years. But my initial response is that I like it.

  • John_CC


    I wonder how Garza hits. Because the main problem with this team was and still is they have no leadoff hitter, no middle of the order hitters, no cleanup hitter…no offense!

  • GrantJones7

    Well we all knew i loved Hak, too pissed to comment all of what i think but HORRIBLE TRADE! I will still follow Hak…

  • Tony

    About Garza –

    But he’s an extreme flyball pitcher who will hate the days that the wind blows out at Wrigley Field, and he’s been traded after pitching well for first the Twins and the Rays. That’s a flashing yellow light for any team putting its future in his hands.

    Another perfect match for Wrigley. I guess Lilly was effective, but I would sure rather have groundball pitchers.

    • BillyFinT

      I don’t know about that. The wind can blow in around the end of the regular season. The Cubs tried Jason Marquis (career groundball rate 49.9%, tops 25th for inducing groundballs since 2002, minimum 600 IP). How did that go?

      The most sure out is a strikeout, and perhaps the infield pop out. The wind can blow from left to right on an October day, while even a devastating curveball may be hit out of the wall by Manny right through the center outfield (2008, anyone?).

      If you have a way of getting batters out, then you are an effective pitcher, regardless of the method. Garza and his career 7.1 K/9 and 1.315 WHIP look O.K. to me.

      • Tony

        Marquis is not a very good example.

        I prefer strikeout pitchers 1st
        I prefer groundout pitchers 2nd

        But above all, I prefer good pitchers, Marquis, didn’t fit this criteria.

  • Patrick_Schaefer

    I Had almost completed an article I was writing on Brandon Guyer! The best defensive outfield in the system he has power and speed, what is not to like? Lee is still Raw with the Bat but I had high hopes. Chirinos could be a starter on many teams.
    Guyer and Chirinos are Major League ready and Archer should be ready at some point this year.
    The Cubs gave up essentially 3 Major League ready players and a top rated prospect.
    Hendry is an idiot!!!!!!!!!!

    • John_CC

      I am not crazy about this trade – not crazy mad and not crazy excited. I will remain on the fence. I am reading really good comments from both sides here – Tony on one and Cloy on the other. Thanks.

      Patrick – you say “essentially major league ready” … just think about that. If one of the three makes it – and I don’t just mean gets to the show – I mean succeeds, it would be considered good on the odds. Three essentially major league ready player for one young, successful and promising Major League player might not be that bad.

      I don’t know. Like I said, I haven’t decided and none of will know for at least a year or three.

  • Teluton

    This seems like a typical Hendry trade,similar to the J.Pierre/Ricky Nolasco deal
    of 06. I don’t know enough about the players we’re shipping away. Anyway,the pitching is not the problem;we need speed ,more speed and a leadoff man. I hope I’m wrong here;perhaps there are more moves to follow.? Much as I dislike Boers and Bernstien on 670, I have to concur with them: what is the long range plan? Hendry doesn’t have one

  • roughriider

    I don’t like this at all. Too much for too little and Perez is Minor league outfielder forever at best.

  • Michael

    Baseball prospects are the most overrated things in all of sports. For ever “great” prospect there is a million guys who you have never heard of that end up being a bust. JH sold high on unproven guys that have done nothing yet at the Major League level. Happy to take Garza, time will tell with the guys we dealt away and how Garza produces for us. Guys said over and over about our “top prospects” from Pie to Patterson and so forth, that we should never ever think about sending for proven guys, yeah that worked wonders for us. We get way toooooo high on prospects, they are just prospects and more often then not dont live up to the billing all of us give them.

  • The Maven


  • Cheryl

    None of you have mentioned that another trade may be in the winds. The roster is now at 38. I don’t think Henry is done.

  • craig

    Everyone was begging for the cubs to get Garza, now they did all I hear is crying. Yes we gave up alot of prospects, but just because they are prospects does not mean they will pan out in the majors. We do not need Chironos, cause we have Soto. I am happy with him. The only one I am upset to see them give up is Archer, but we will see how that works out

    • Tony

      You must not be reading everything. There were way more people advocating, not trading prospects for Garza.

      You will regret Hak Ju Lee.

      All players start as prospects.

      • stormyweather

        Lees the one I hated to see them give up. And I think we are underating Chirinos-he just started catching 3 years ago , and oddly enough his offensive numbers improved when he was switched to catching. Guyer, likely had no place here, because frankly we have the 2 sucky contracts(Fuku and Sorryano)

  • bpot92

    At first I did not want to trade the prospects at all. My previous post were nothing more than Chirinos Lee and J Jackson. However this isn’t as bad as I though it would be. I hate that we gave up archer, but chirinos is 26 and we have soto and Castillo is still a decent prospect. Lee is still a minimum two years away and has holes in his swing from what I hear. I wanted to keep him but I guess he is one of the high risk high reward potential prospects so Im not too mad because we have casrto and some decent 2b prospects in flaherty and (dj lemiuegh?). Guyer was 24 and behind jackson who has no spot since we have soriano and bryd and fukudome in the OF blocking them. Colvin is slated to start also so we have no room other than a 5th OF which would hurt his progression anyway. So in my opinion, we sold high on Chirinos and Guyer, lee can be replaced/wont help until at least midway through 2012, and Archer was the only huge hit, but you have to give uo something of value to get something of value.

  • The Maven

    Here’s what Cubs’ fans can expect this year when Matt Garza takes the mound.

    According to his career stats

    Garza has a career record of 42-44 with an ERA of 3.97. In 725.1 innings pitched, he’s given up 698 hits and 347 runs. His 162 game projection is 12-13, 3.97 ERA, 199 hits, 99 runs, 163 strikeouts, 73 walks.


    On the games Garza pitches, opposing teams will average a hit an inning and a run every two innings. He will strike out two batters and walk one every three innings,

    It will be interesting yo see if the Cubs’ offense and defense can keep up with these numbers,

    WE TRADED ARCHER AND LEE FOR THIS????????????????????????????

    • BosephHeyden

      I personally thought Garza was over-hyped after his no-hitter. If he didn’t have the no-hitter, most of us wouldn’t even know who he was.

    • Tony

      I have stated many times, that Garza is NOT an ACE. He will do very well in the NL and we will like that he is in our rotation, but he will not be that guy, that other teams fear, like

      Carpenter, Wainwright, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, F Hernandez, Sabathia, Verlander, Weaver, Lester, J Johnson, Jimenez, Price, Hamels, Kershaw, Latos, Haren, Liriano, Grienke, Hanson, Becket…

      I could go on. Garza was ranked in the 40’s for SP for next year’s fantasy baseball, behind SP such as
      Dempster, J Danks, R Romero, Nolasco, J Sanchez, S Marcum, Lilly, Billingsley, Scherzer. Of course the pitchers team has an effect on fantasy rankings, but the elite, are at the top, no matter what team, they are on.

    • paulcatanese

      To theMaven. Didn’t Harden come from Oakland and Silva from th AL and didn’t both start out gung ho for the first half of the season?I agree Garza may be some of the same(my opinion) and I do not think the Cub offense can keep up with the runs scored against them,actualy they don’t have an offense. I gotta tell ya I sure was looking forward to Lee,oh well.

      • The Maven

        Yes Paul, Garza may have a similar impact as Harden and Silva had to start out with. My concern, stated in articles earlier in the week, is that Garza has been pitching at the major league level for the past 5 seasons. He could be just one pitch away from a serious injury. If that happened, then how good would this trade be?

        I agree with Tom U’s post that the player to be named later will be the key to the trade. The player he mentioned that could be useful is Elliott Johnson. He’s a switch hitting shortstop that playedTriple A. He could make the team in spring training and may be a possibility for the lead-off spot.

  • cubsklm

    Will Castro get a day off in 2011? Who is the backup SS? Barney/Baker??? We need to trade Gorzy for a young 2b/SS, with speed – who can lead off. Any thoughts? I would really like to see the Cubs go after Jed Lowrie of the RedSox. But he doesn’t lead off. He can play either – and would be a major upgrade to DeWitt & Baker.

    • Neil

      Barney goes in as the backup to Castro. As for leadoff, Mike Quade said he will play match-ups at the beginning of the season.

      Here is an article that I ran earlier in the week …

    • stormyweather

      barney will be the backup. I actually like him as a utility guy, has a winners mentality and seems to do the little things well. Just not a front line talent, but can be a decent bench player.

  • Theboardrider

    Garza is a stud. 15 game winner in the AL East. He may win the Cy Young in the National League. No telling what the prospects will do. Garza has better stuff and mental make up than Grienke…

    • Tony

      I didn’t want Grienke either, but what is more impressive.

      Winning 16 games when your team wins 67 – 23.9%
      Winning 15 games when your team wins 96 – 15.6%

      I think the 16 game winner on the crappy team is better. That would be Grienke, the guy with the Cy Young.

      Garza’s 2nd best season is 11 wins, 3rd best is 8. The Rays have Won, 97, 84, and 96 the last 3 years.

      Don’t get me wrong, I like Garza, but he is no STUD, no ACE. He is a very nice #2 in a decent rotation, and a solid #3, in a great rotation.

      • RDiaz

        Win Loss records are OVERRATED for a pitcher. And at least there’s a glimmer of hope this season now.

        • Tony

          So Grienke winning 16 games on a bad team, is not more impressive than Garza winning 15 when hes team wins 96. In this context, it is a fair comparison. Both AL pitchers, where they don’t get lifted to bat.

  • Lomach

    Personally, I think Jim Hendry is an imbecile. Archer and Chirinos should have both been untouchable.

  • Tom U

    In analyzing the trade, the key to whether this willbe a good deal or abad deal will depend on the pitcher named later.

    Let’s start with the easy part. The numbers show that Sam Fuld for Fernando Perez is a push. They have nearly identical defensive numbers and similar offensive ones.
    Perez is a switch hitter with better speed, Fuld is a better hitter and has had more success at higher levels.

    In trading prospects for an established right-handed starting pitcher, trading your #1 and #10 prospects can be considered equitable. Therefore, Garza for Archer and Guyer can be considered even.

    The pitching prospect given up by Tampa would have to be equal to the #4 prospect (Lee) and a player expected to be in the majors this season (Chirinos).

    Here are some players to look for:

    Jeremy Hellickson, 23 year old AAA righthander
    Alexander Torres, 22 year old AA lefthander
    Joseph Cruz, 21 year old A righthander

    Any lessor pitcher than these would make the trade a failure for the Cubs.

    • Ripsnorter1

      This is a very good analysis.

      WE got Matt Clement and Alfonseca for Ryan Jorgenson, Jose Cueto, Dontrell Willis, and Julian Taveras.

      Clement: 12-11, 14-12, 9-13 for us. Then he went 13-6 and 5-5 the next two years for Boston.

      Alfonseca stunk up the joint as our six fingered and six toed closer: 2-5 4.00 19sv, followed by 3-1, 0sv and 5.83. All of this after he had saved 45 and 28 games for FL the previous two years.

      Taveras: hahahahahahahahahahha 10-9 4.52 for Cubs, went 10-12 5.39 for FL the next year.

      Willis: he’s where it hurt. He turned out to be better than Clement: 68-54 in 5 years for FL, including his initial 14-6 year at age 21 (better than Clement’s 14-12 that same year . . . .).

      Jorgenson, C, got 20 big league AB, the last coming in 2008.

      Jose Cueto: after age 27, he quit, never making it past AA in the minors.

      If only Alfonseca had become a real closer, the trade would have been a little more even. As it was, Willis dominated the mound for about 3 years. And after his third year (22-6), he was washed up. Should have traded him then (sell high!), because he went 12-12 3.87, 10-15 5.15, 0-2 9.38, 1-4 7.39, 2-3 5.62. The party was over . . . . .

      In this trade, we would have been better off to just keep Dontrel Willis and Taveras. Too bad, really . . . .

      Juan Pierre: a one year rental by the Cubs, costing us:

    • Cheryl

      I like your analysis. But is the player still to be named have to be a pitcher, why not a third base prospect?

      • Tom U

        Sorry, that was my mistake for mis-reading the press release. The report did say a minor league infielder.

        If the Cubs are looking to get equal value here are two players to consider:
        Elliott Johnson, 26 year old AAA switch hitting shortstop
        Tim Beckham, 20 year old A right handed shortstop (former first round draft pick)

        However, neither is the as good a prospect as Hak-Ju Lee. There are no third basemen in their system that would near equal value to Lee and Chirinos. It’s my opinion that if the player is to be an infielder, a major league player, such as Ben Zobrist, would have been appropriate. Since that is not the case, it would be safe to conclude that the Cubs did not get fair value in this deal.

    • Ken Mcvey

      It will not be Hellickson, I can tell you that. He just replaces Garza in the Rays Starting Rotation.

      If you look at this from the neighbor’s farm, I.e. Tampa Bay’s farm, they just traded their #3 SP for a bucket full of young talent. And still have Hellickson & Moore on their farm. Now you add Archer, Lee, Chirinos, & Guyer to that farm.

      Growing up in Illinois, I can say the Rays are damn good farmers. Hendry is the equivalent of — if Oliver Douglas of Green Acres & Mr Haney had a son.

      • Tom U

        I agree that Hellickson would not be included in the deal. The point is that the deal would need a player of the same quality of Hellickson to be an equitable deal. Since it appears that an infielder will be included (see my reply to Cheryl), it looks like the Cubs will not get fair value.

        • Neil

          Tom, keep in mind what the Cubs are receiving along with Garza and Fernando Perez is unknown. I have heard a minor league infielder or a minor league pitcher. The only thing “known” at this point, is there is a yet to be named player coming to the Cubs system.

    • daverj

      You’re dreaming if you think we’re getting Hellickson, Torres or Cruz. Not going to happen. Likely some marginal relief prospect coming to the Cubs.

  • Hammered Hank

    BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Among qualified AL pitchers, Garza ranked 17th in IP, 20th in WHIP and 23rd in ERA. His career record (pitching for a good team the last three years) is 42-44. This is not an ace. This is a decent pitcher that might help get us back to .500 in a year we should have waited out while prospects developed and contracts expired, so we could make a real run next year. 3rd place is not a goal–this just proves Hendry doesn’t have the courage to accept a rebuilding year, and a cowardly GM will keep a team mediocre forever. I’ve tried to keep positive about Jim Hendry, but I’m done with it. I hope he is booed off the podium at the cubs convention for this. I’m a cubs fan and I expect better.

  • Ripsnorter1

    Juan Pierre:
    We got our long awaited, speedy leadoff hitter. Oh that Cubs’ fans would learn that a winning team doesn’t need speed without power at the top of the lineup! But they haven’t, and GM Jim Clueless hasn’t, so we get Juan Pierre.

    Juan was a one year rental, leading the NL in caught stealing (20), games (162), AB (699), hits (204), singles (158!). Some of his more pathetic stats included 40 RBIs, .292 BA, .330 OBP, and .388 slugging! GAG a EUGENE MAGGOT!!!!

    All this cost us was:
    Sergio Mitre: not a bad arm, still pitching for the Yanks, with a whopping 13-29 career record, and many trips to the DL.

    Reynel Pinto: a career minor leaguer still in the FL system.

    Ricky Nolasco:
    He IMMEDIATELY became a starter for FL, going 11-11 in 2006.
    But he has become a middling starter for FL, going 15-8, 13-9 and 14-9 since then. ERA has been 4.45 for his career (Garza: 3.97; Greg Maddox career ERA 3.16; Zambrano 3.50; Kerry Wood 3.65).

  • Ripsnorter1

    After analyzing the FL/Cubs’ trades of Clement and Pierre, it seems obvious that these truths are evident:

    1. Archer will make the jump to MLB starter for FL starting in 2011. He will go 14-6 for FL.

    2. Garza will pitch 3 years for the Cubs, going 42-40.

    3. Chirinos won’t get but 20 ML AB. A bust.

    4. Guyer becomes a career minor leaguer that returns to the Cubs for his 28th year, and calls it quits after hitting .220 at AA Tennessee.

    5. Ha Ju Lee becomes the next Cal Ripken . . . .

    6. Jim Clueless will call this trade “a good trade for both teams.”

  • Ripken Boy

    If Garza was the last piece to put the Cubs in the World Series, I would love this trade. This trade does not make the Cubs a World Series contender and we gave up way too much young talent to get him.

    The Cubs needed to go young and build from within. I have no faith in Hendry’s evaluation of young talent and who he should keep or trade. He probably traded future superstars in Lee and Archer to try and save his job and get Garza.

    Time will tell if this trade is a good one, but right now I think they gave up too much. The Red Sox gave up a lot less to get Adrian Gonzales.

  • Cubs Fan

    This trade is going to haunt the Cubs for a long time. JH gave up top prospects for this trade. Let’s face it, Cubs are going nowhere in 2011. This trade does not equate to a winning season. Why not let the kids play and find out how they are. Cubs biggest issue is and has been, scoring runs. Soriano, Ramirez and Pena do not equal offense.

  • stormyweather

    Frankly, i think this deal sucks. You gave up Archer AND Lee in the same deal? Not to mention, last year Chirinos and Guyer were your 2 most productive offensive players in the high minors. This team needs OFFENSE and more ATHLETICISM. And what did you do ,Hendry? You TRADED away the 2 of the best athletes in your system.

  • roseyc

    I think it’s a great deal.Your not going to get a pitcher like Garza for nothing.From what I’m hearing the prospects aren’t that well thought of outside of Cubville. Garza and Dempster and Zambrano and Cashner and Gorzelanny is what I see for the rotation. Wells and Coleman should be trade bait. Solid bullpen that is what the Cubs have over the rest of the division. Now the hitting has to come around with Soriano and Rameriz the key to the season along with Zambrano.

  • studio179

    They say Garza has a bit of a temper. Maybe Big Z can calm him down. 😉

  • Gary J

    Just a quick note to those people saying that the Cubs need offense and traded away their best hitters… they didn’t. Brett Jackson is their best prospect hitter. Period. Josh Vitters is projected as a better hitter than anyone we lost as well. And I’d say Colvin also qualifies as a prospect. HJ Lee… well…. yeah. But as many on here have said he was likely 2 years away from the big show.

    So of the top possible impact bats in the system – at least so far as the “experts” analyze things – we still have our top guys.

    And in the prospects aren’t proven category… the top prospects rated by BA over the last decade have been Patterson (flop), Prior (stud… too bad about the injuries – I’m rooting for his comeback this year), Choi (only good until dealt for Lee then flop city), Angel Guzman (solid big leaguer but not special), Dopirak (nothing yet), Pie twice (so double the flop), Vitters twice (crossing fingers on him), and Castro (promising so far)…. of that list of 8, only one qualifies as a star (Prior) with potential for one more (Castro) and the just still out on one (Vitters).

    And also looking at that posting from Neil (love the archives btw Neil) you can see that of the players in the deal, only one (Archer) is rated as a B+ or 4 star player depending on which publication you look at. So even though they were OUR top prospects, they weren’t MLB top prospects. There’s a big difference there.

    The publications are all saying that the Cubs farm system is headed in the right direction and with the extra money being funneled in that direction, that should continue to be the case. But they also say that while the organization as a whole is strong, there aren’t any impact players close. That includes the guys we just sent away.

    And for what it’s worth, Rays fans (family in Tampa area has been listening to the sports talk down there all day – and yes – they’re Cubs fans :-) ) are up in arms about the deal because they didn’t get Jackson, Vitters, Colvin, or Cashner.

    It’s odd, but when both sides of a deal think they got hosed – it’s usually a pretty fair deal all things considered. :-)

    I wish the guys traded to the Rays nothing but success… but they’re all facing an uphill climb to make anything of themselves in the show.

  • Gary J

    On a side note….

    As for a 20 year old player in the low minors that could be the leadoff hitter of the future – how about Matt Szczur? Don’t know much about him personally – but Baseball America moved him into the Cubs top 10 this year (Szczur 7 / Lee 4) and the scouts pegged the guy as the organization’s fastest baserunner as well as the best athlete ( He’s not a shortstop, so that’s a point for Lee, but trading Lee isn’t the end of the world. I would have rather have held onto him but Garza’s going to do well for us. And Lee wasn’t going to be an impact player for two more years. (as is Szczur at a minimum too).

    Hesitated to post that because it’ll open up another debate LOL – but there’s some organizational depth for a change in the minors. Instead of a handful of top guys and then a big drop off (which has often been the case in the past) there seems to be less of a drop off between the top teir and the “other guys”.

    • Will miss Santo

      The Cubs underachieved last year and were predicted to contend and favored by some in their division. They are stronger this year and have 40 mil coming off the books next year. The future is bright!!!

      • Gary J