Once again, I hope I am writing the last word on this subject so that Cubs fans can move on to other issues. The venom that has been recently released on DLee is not because of his poor season or his invoking his no-trade clause. We all remember DLee as a great player. However, he has never been the same since he broke his wrist several seasons ago. Two seasons ago, he disappeared after the All-Star break. Last season he was sleepwalking through the first two months. Had he been productive, who knows what could have happened in those seasons. Fans are not only frustrated with his poor production, but with his attitude toward his lack of production. DLee has publically stated several times over the past few seasons that veterans should be allowed to keep playing through their slumps, even if they are bringing the team down. He has also publically refused to sit out games or to accept being batted lower in the line up. And again, no professional athlete should use a personal issue to excuse poor performance. If his family matters were bothering him that greatly, he could have taken a leave of absence, like millions of people do in other walks of life (remember, Ryne Sandberg took an entire season off to deal with personal issues). Good leaders know when their performance, or lack of performance, is hurting the team and will volunteer to sit out until they get better. DLee continues to insist on batting third or fourth in the line up, while he continues to strike out or ground into double plays with men on base. This is why forums such as this are full of criticism for DLee. The hope is that someone that can do something about it is listening.

Maven,

Reading these replies from other fans, I must say the Lee situation was complicated. He has his right to bar trades. The Union (PLayers Association) and other players will thank him for that. It's not his family or anything private that puts him in such a position.

The business model of pro-ball now works so... a player like Lee *(10-5 veteran clause in collective bargain) can do whatever he wants. ...It's not like he's selfish.

We don't know that. What had he done more than what other players would have done? Maybe it's agreed by Lou that veterans must play like Lee did.

I simply see that Lee, the old dog, has refused to learn new tricks, whether it's working with hitting coaches, or do something else to get out of slump, instead of batting 3rd day-in and out.

I don't know if the Cubs can better from a Lee trade-to-Angels or not. But I know Lee is not at fault. It's a shame the Cubs couldn't make more moves earlier, with other players.

By the way, good suggestion of Vitters might move to OF. I don't know. Some players have the baseball sense for those things, some are better with flyballs than grounders, vice versa, and so on...

If he can learn some plate discipline and hit, as I replied you a few minutes ago, then yeah, Vitters should be available at the Major level wherever he plays. But it will still take him more years to learn from now on, especially after his rehab ... Or else... I guess Hendry needs to fire the scout who signed him.

As the phrase goes, "from your mouth, Dorasaga, to God's ear". Thanks for the compliment. I know I'm the new guy, but everyone has made me feel at home (and you should see my home!).

Bobby Howry was released to make room for Zambrano

cubs release howry

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/cubs-release-bob-howry.html

Well, the Rangers are off the radar for Theriot, cause they just got my starting shortstop Christian Guzman from the Nats.

I don't understand but in the grand scheme of things, with how much the Cubs payroll is, why is an extra 2-3 million dollar such an issue in a trade with the Dodgers? I undersand on the Dodgers part, b/c of the divorce, but not on the Cubs. If they are going to get solid prospects back why not just eat the 2-3 million, I mean they are already eating the salaries of players on the team so to speak (fukudome). I'm going to be so ticked if the Dodgers offered very good prospects but the deal didn't go through because the Cubs didn't pick up a few million dollars.

they better, if its the differnce between DeWitt and Dee Gordon, id pay the 3 mill FOR SURE

Latest from Ofman

Lilly to Dodgers.Names to consider from LA: John Ely and Dee Gordon SS top prospect

is this going down???

I don't know, but if it takes sending some money to include Gordon then I hope Rickett's opens up his wallet.

for sure, him and Ely would be GREAT

That deal would suffice. That's all you can expect for Lilly. We have the market in second baseman and now we have the market for shortstops. Shortstop are a better commodity anyways. Any word if Fukedome and Nady are going anywhere?

As far as Lee goes. I think he wants to stay in Chicago and even maybe next year. Whether this will happen, I dont know. How dare he think about his family.

He knows if he is traded he wont be back. If he stays he's got a shot to stay next year.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicagocubs/post/_/id/1778/dodgers-yankees-consider-trading-for-lilly

Latest from Ofman:

Cubs still working with Dodgers on Lilly, Theriot deal. Could still wind up with DeWitt and pitcher from minors. Sorry, no Billingsly

because ANOTHER light hitting middle infielder is exactly what we need.

What is the point of trading Theriot if all you get back is his clone, a couple years younger - and with less speed? Really, why would you do this?

I'd rather have a prospect.

Ofman tweeted that the Dodgers showed interest in Dempster "a while back" ... why wouldn't the Cubs have dealt Dempster if they're trying to trim payroll?

I dont think they are really triming payroll. Maybe a little. They still want Dempster for next year, I guess.

I've been following the threads here for about three years and rarely commenting. However, I've made an assessment as to how best use my time - not reading this BS.

It's culminated this season with DLee taking advantage of a contract clause he has earned through his years of performance at contracted pay levels and seeing him vilified by a group of self proclaimed experts as to his personal character, his competitive nature and some mythical set of "supernumerary" (excuse the slight misuse of the word) contractual obligations they feel his obligate to perform to better the Cubs at his expense. By the way, he does have the ring of World Series Champion.

Repeat the scenario for Lou, just adjust the vilifications accordingly. By the way, he has the rings of a World Series Champion as both a player and manager.

All this negative BS about people's motives, desire, character etc. appears to me to be shallow people acting out as small child might when they don't get what they want. Not having won a World Series in over a hundred years or players and a team not achieving expected/desired results is not an excuse for boorish behavior or in this case boorish comments. Therer is no excuse for fans acting in these posts in a manner comparible to Zambrano acting out on the field.

If some's bat is to slow because they're old they're old - not an evil person. If some can't catch a ball at second base, its because he's a bad fielder, not an evil plot to deny you a Cubs victory. If someone has throws a non-breaking curve high in the zone that get's jacked its's because he's human and his performance is subject to variability, he didn't do it to piss you off.

Your passion for your team is not a get out of jail card for being a jerk.

In any case I've said my piece and I've gone on much too long.

I too have been reading the CCO for many years and also rarely post. However, I love the insight, opinions, banter, and endless amount of work that goes into this site. All I can say is if you feel you are not using your time wisely by reading then feel free not to. I will continue to read each day and enjoy every post and opinion that is contributed...that is what it is all about. No, you will not agree with everything everyone says, but each person who takes time out of their day to enjoy the CCO clearly has a passion for the cubs. It is that passion which comes out in these threads and makes this a great place to be!

Thank you Wilbur. I agree.

But keep in mind, they are well respected bloggers on this site. So they must be right(sarcasm).

I still never get the Lou hatred. He can't manage a bullpen, but that's been his MO for every team, yet he still won the World Series. And it isn't like us losing is HIS fault. This is 85% on Hendry. Lou never had a constant positional lineup in 2008 and we were the best team in the NL during the regular season (remember: we liked DeRosa cause he could play AND bat anywhere).

Jim Hendry tore apart a winning team and Lou was still Lou. He just had worse pieces to work with, and it highlighted features people never noticed before in a negative light.

Lee, though, I don't care: he's going to be seen in a bad light especially after Roy Oswalt, who is in the same boat as Lee contract wise and had been with his team longer, put aside his no-trade so that the team could get better. Maybe it was a business decision, maybe it was a family decision. But fact is, I'm a Cubs fan, not a "Cubs front office" fan or a "Lee Family" fan. It doesn't mean I hate his family or wish ill on him. I want to see what's best for the CUBS and Lee did what was best for himself (though that's debatable), which means Lee goes down a few notches.

Boden:

I know i'm going back 20 years ago but the Reds managed by Lou P beat the overwhelming favorites (Oakland A's) in the WS. The starters went 5/6 innings and he let the nasty boys take over. Dibble, Myers and Charlton were awesome. Joe Torre did the same with Wetland/Rivera in 1996. He said he followed Pinella's formula.

Once more, Oswalt's and Lee's situations were not the same. Oswalt was under contract for 2011 with an option for 2012. Lee's contract is expiring. Oswalt has 8 years of MLB service, yes all with the Astros. Lee is a 10 year vet with 5 for the Cubs. Oswalt clearly did not want to finish his contract with the Astros.

Joe Cowley of Sun Times is tweeting that Kenny Williams has something big cooking that would stop the Edwin Jackson pursuit.

Looks like KW is going to overshadow JH again at the trade deadline.

I am still amazed how Kenny Williams makes these trades. He's not an especially good buyer (he traded Clayton Richards and prospects for Jake Peavy, and Richards has been doing more than fine with the Padres, plus prospects?) And his demands as a seller are often outrageous (in 2008, his asking price to the Cubs for Jermaine Dye was simply "Carlos Marmol"...that is not a sane person's demands).

And yet, these things work out for him on a near-constant basis. He could very well land Adam Dunn AND Edwin Jackson, and though it may cost him some good young players who excel sooner rather than later for their new teams, their team always seems to manage. And whats more, their farm system doesn't really impress me all that much either.

The Big Man upstairs must have something riding on the Sox.

Neil,

What do you think of the deal? Do you actually think it'll happen?

If so, what do you think the return would be?

I think we should ask for Elbert and Kyle Russell, who is a high ceiling guy, older than Vitters at 24, but seemingly the same type of player, where he takes about 1/2 year to adjust to new leagues, but he has massive power, evidently, which we desperately need in our system.

Or, possibly Dee Gordon, whom many feel is incredibly overrated by the Dodgers. He's like a lefty version of Theriot, but with slightly more speed (though his CS rates are bad), and he strikes out more often.

Or Jonathan Garcia: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=garcia003jon

Or maybe a high ceiling pitcher like Garrett Gould?

Aaron, I have read good things about Dee Gordon. That could work. I am surprised the Dodgers would want to move Billingsley.

Here ya go Aaron ... from George Ofman

Lilly and Theriot to Dodgers? Could be for Billingsly and Dewitt. Stay tuned

In a homerun throwback minute.

There would almost have to be more to it if that was the actual trade since I do not see how that improves the Dodger's chances to make up 7 games in the standing. I think the Cubs would be coming out ahead simply on the age difference of the players otherwise its about a straight even swap position wise.

Billingsley would be HUGE!!!

I like it...make it happen JIM!

i don't know about the rest of you guys, but i'm sick of losing...at the same time trading some of our players seems pointless...why not push funk-odome, zambran-ho, or lee...i would hate to see lee go, but he is remarkably horrible this season...so is aramis...lets bring up all of the young guys and let them gain some experiance so that next year maybe we won't suck as bad

we already discussed this yesterday ad nauseam. Lee isn't going anywhere. You might as well stamp the "loser" label on his forehead. He invoked his no-trade clause, which most certainly is his right both in his contract, and his 10-and-5 rights. He would've gone to the Angels, presumably for someone like Brandon Wood, who is out of options, and has struggled badly at the MLB level.

Lee showed that he has no desire to win. Both the Angels and Rangers were in on Lee, so he had a chance to both go to a first place team (Rangers) and home (Angels), but used the family card. Funny thing is, unless Ricketts is a complete idiot, and approves re-signing Lee, he's NOT going to be back with us, and will have to uproot his family anyhow. It's just a matter of when for Lee. Do you do it now, or do you do it in October? Evidently, he wants to wait until school starts, then uproot his kids, then, which is INCREDIBLY wise for him to do (sarcasm ensuing)

You are so obnoxious.

From Carrie Muskat:

Cubs & Dodgers talking about deal for Ted Lilly & Ryan Theriot. Hold-up is how much $$$ Cubs willing to pay

If we're including money, we better get a few prospects. Knowing Hendry, we'll get a two-for-two deal, where the two prospects we get in return wind up being Low-A guys that wind up not panning out.

AND THAT'S WHY HE STILL HAS A JOB! I just figured it out! Ricketts had to have extended Hendry because he has not seen how horrible he is at dealing guys. I mean, he got rid of all his mistakes from last year, but really, all we got in return was Carlos Silva and that was purely contract-related and accidental on the return. No wonder why Hendry is moving anyone.

The nationals just got one of the top catching prospects in baseball for a closer who they were basically renting for a year. The cubs better get something decent from the dodogers if they offer to pay all that salary. the dodgers are known for giving better prospects to teams that pick up salary so they do not have to add payroll.

six for half dozen?