Dodgers after Lilly and Theriot according to Rosenthal

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-latest-news-from-July-070110

Stop the madness. Go to AAA for Cubs fans. Find a nice park to walk in a book to read. You have to be a mashocist to watch this process. I am beginning to think that the Ricketts have no intention of building a winning team. They are so buried in debt after stretching to buy the club they are just trying to stay solvent through the process. I believe their time horizon is many years...work down the debt, keep the butts in the seats, get the financial burden under control...only time can help them there. 25mm in interest payments per year makes you think twice about trying to find new baseball people that are going to be a duplicate expense to what you have. I will say it now...if no major changes occur in this franchise in the offseason we are going into nuclear winter or a period that is very much Blackhawk like before Rocky. I really admire the spirit of the great Cub fans but this is far from the beginning and only time and more pain will cause any change to happen. The good news for the Ricketts is that they can continue to just do enough to keep a glimmer of hope alive and they will fill those seats and the franchise will continue to flounder while they build equity in their investment throughout their ownership. As much as the Cubs are in my DNA it will be hard to not care but that day is coming soon.

That's exactly what my buddy was saying the other day, though he had more financial analysis to it (he's in hedge funds, so he knows a lot about stuff like that). I'm going to try to get him to post on here, because he could put it better than I could ever hope to do on here.

If I recall what he was saying correctly, he stated that we'll see a payroll somewhere around $115 million next year, which is $30 million less than this year. He included the improvement proposed, and already done in what he outlined for me. I'll try to get that for everyone on here to see, because it's a pretty sophisticated analysis.

If we have a payroll like he suggested, it'd basically be eliminating expiring contracts like Lee ($13 million), Lilly ($14 million), and Nady ($3 million).

He doesn't like to predict things like I do in terms of rosters, etc., but if you throw in non-tenders like Fontenot ($1 million), Theriot ($2.5 million), Baker (about $1 million), Hill ($700k), Howry ($400k), you're saving about another $6 million. You might think, "well, that's great, we'd have at least $6 million to improve the team"....

Not so fast....

Marshall at $950k, Soto at $575k, and Marmol at $2.125 million are all due raises (and that's assuming that they're the only ones....it very well could be that Hendry retains at least Baker if not all 3 of him, Fontenot, and Theriot, which would represent even more raises to factor in.

Marshall likely gets $2.5 million (+$1.6 million), Soto likely gets $2 million (+1.5 million), and Marmol likely gets $5 million (+2.9 million). That's exactly $6 million in raises...Obviously, that's entirely speculation and bases on LIKELY raises. I'm going off what typical guys would receive in raises based on position and production. Typically, closers and catchers would get bigger raises than comparable players in middle relief or middle infield respectively, unless they have other-worldly numbers like an Utley or Hanley Ramirez type, or a Lidge, back when he was a set-up man for Wagner.

That means there will be ZERO improvement on this roster if my buddy is accurate with his financial analysis.

The players we want to unload the most next season in order are: Zambrano ($18.875 million next yr, plus $19 million in '12), Fukudome ($14.5 million remaining next yr), Silva ($7.25 million for next yr), Grabow ($4.8 million)

I'd be shocked if we can find teams for these guys, which means we'd have to take on their entire contracts, and there's absolutely no way that happens, so we're likely stuck with them. I guess you could make the case that Z is worth a 5th starter's salary of around $8 million, so you'd be eating about $11 million. Fukudome has NO value, which means teams would value him what an average veteran would make, which would be around $2-3 million, thus you'd be eating $11 million with him as well. Then, you have Silva. Silva's an interesting case. If he continues his strong season, and maybe even gets better as it goes on, we just might have a chance of unloading him AND the contract without paying a damn thing.

Others like Soriano ($19 million/yr for 4 yrs), ARAM ($14.6 million next yr), Dempster ($14.5 and $14.0 for '12) aren't going anywhere either due to extremely prohibitive deals, or because they're too valuable to us in Dempster's case.

Even if we eat most of the salaries outlined, we'd likely just be gaining $11 million from Z and Fukudome. That might be what Hendry's praying for, because that's the ONLY way he can sign an impact bat like Dunn for 1B next year.

In any case, it's going to get REALLY ugly

Great post Aaron, but as they say on the east coase, forgetaboutit. Your probably right with them tendering Baker. However, the infield next year will probably be ARAM, Castro, Baker and Darwin Barney, with two of the minor leaguers that show the most in training camp (out of LaHair, Hoffpauir, and Lalli) kept fot first base. The outfield of Soriano, Byrd, Colvin and Fukudome is pretty set, with Matt Camp probably getting the nod because he can play infield or outfield. Catching will be Soto and either Chirinos or Catillo. The starters are pretty set also, with Cashner or Samardzija taking Lilly's spot. They'll keep on playing minor leaguer roulette with the right handed bullpen spots. The Cubs won't spend any money on free agents because the Ricketts family will want to maximize revenue and Hendry's track record isn;t particularly good.

Great post jw. Most fans don't realize that owners don't ever pay out of their pocket for club operations. All money for the budget comes from their revenue streams, with any surplus going to paying down the debt. That being, the Ricketts family won't see dollar one from owning the Cubs for several years. That's why so many football games and concerts are being scheduled. It gives the Ricketts' some money in their pocket while waiting for a return on their investment. It also means that they'll try to maximize revenue. Watch them try to go cheap on a new manager, while non-tendering many of their players as they wait for the many long term contracts to expire.

Sorry Cubs faithful to be writing about the Rangers on this site, but it's been a hell of a long while since those of us down here in the Lone Star state have had a Rangers team doing this well. Just sad the Cubs are looking so bad this year while the Rangers are playing this well so far.

The Rangers have made the best (C Lee) and most prudent (Cantu) moves so far, and they aren't done yet. They'll get a middle IF still. And they've done it while under serious financial straights! It's a wonder what can be done by proactive, creative thinking upper management.

The Rangers are poised to pull away in the AL West. Haren is not enough to keep the Angels alive. I hate it, but I find the AL races more interesting. The NL East is a banged up Philly, flawed and hated Mets and now the old boring Braves again. In the West we've got the freakin Padres and Dodgers - can it get worse for Cubs fans? And then the Central...ugh...Dusty's kids or the effing Cards. I don't like any of my choices in the NL.

I guess I have to pull for Philly...again...but they are wearing thin.

Neil- Do you know how many years Trammell has left on his contract?

I believe Trammell has been on a series of one-year deals. I know he is not under contract past this year.

Thanks Neil! I believe that would eliminate him for consideration as the next manager. I don't know whether Rothschild is under contract, but the idea is that the Cubs would settle for an in-house candidate, or perahps a cheap alterbnative like Listach,until Henry's contract expires in two years. Sandberg would be made bench coach or third base coach to get more experience, with him being named manager once Hendry's contract expires.

As many of us have seen on this site for many months, Aaron has mentioned often that a young Texas Ranger farmhand named Mitch Moreland is an outstanding prospect (one the Cubs should have been trying to land). Well, Aaron, Moreland got called up to the Rangers tonight and got a hit his first time up in the bigs and went 2 for 4 in the game (just missing a home run to center on one of his outs). I started following Moreland's progress after Aaron kept writing about him.....nice scouting, Aaron!

And do not forget the Rangers got Jorge Cantu.

I am still a little worried about their bullpen and hope Kinsler's groin is not a lingering issue.

GO RANGERS!!

Do hope Cantu can be a plus...guess we'll see. I agree about the bullpen (is Felman headed to the pen?...don't trust Hardin one little bit) and feel that Kinsler's return to health will be a MAJOR key if the Rangers are to continue to win in August and September.

DieHardCubfan,

You wrote "Next year is looking even more disastrous than this year unless we have a miracle and the team is exorcised."

Well, the first exorcism needs to be the lousy GM. He ranks right up there with the worst in Baseball.

On the other hand, what GM wants Sorry-oh-no? Z, who has lost his velocity, and is no longer effective? Funko for $13.5 million next year? Aram made $16.75 million this year, has has two years left on his contract. Who wants a .227 hitting, not much defense, 3B?

The Cubs are getting 10 wins per year for Dempster's $70 million contract. Grabow is getting $7.5 million. Who wants 'em?

Conclusion: the Cubs will stink for the next three years.

Completely agree. I pointed out quite a while back many of the same issues you did and that unless JH did something to overhaul the team we would be in a bad state of affairs and will not recover for probably about 5 years thanks to JHs irresponsible handling of contracts.

We are now nearing that point with no way out.

We cannot give Fukudome away, trading our best trade chip Lilly seems less and less likely, DLee vetoes a trade and our three 2Bs who combined have done nothing are still with the team.

Then we still have all those bad contracts, Soriano, Big Z and ARAM. There is no way we will get any better but only worse.

I agree with Aaron and jc 3-6-3. I too feel a deal involving Lilly seems more and more unlikely. The Tigers, Twins, Mets and others appear to have lost interest and it remains uncertain if the Dodgers can free up salary.

It remains possible Theriot could end up with the Rangers but I do not think that will happen until after 31 Jul.

Andrus is struggling some with his bat and Kinsler is hurt and Theriot can play both.

That is about the only move I see JH making.

Thanks for the mess JH. Great to see you take care of plugging holes on the team or preparing for next season.

Next year is looking even more disastrous than this year unless we have a miracle and the team is exorcised.

Anyone see this:

******************************************

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/rosenblog/2010/07/what-theriot-said-about-lees-decision-says-a-lot-of-about-the-cubs-loser-mentality.html

.....the title says it all, but this part is particularly true:

"So, there you go: Winning isn’t everything, it’s what other teams do. The Cubs? They emphasize urinals and see-through signs.

Disastrous performances by players given full no-trade rights? Bummer.

Disastrous decisions about a bullpen that has been bad most of the season and just allowed 12 runs in Houston in case you missed the stench? Not an issue, apparently.

The new wonk in charge, see, said he isn’t putting the blame on anyone for the 2010 embarrassment, which means he won’t have any idea what needs to be changed, which means more of the same. Meet the new wonk, as useless as the old wonk.

But hey, have you seen the noodle?"

******************************************

Is Rosenbloom stalking the CCO and stealing my comments?!?

I totally agree with what he said, but that's like agreeing with myself, I guess. He's a little more cynical than I am, but I can't help but like his commentary on the noodle and the Ricketts family. The "new wonk" is the same as the old wonk...That's just too perfect

Hendry will be back. He'll hire Joe Torre. He'll re-sign Lee for about $9-10 million/year for 2 years plus an option for a 3rd year easily achieved at 50 At Bats....LOL

Z is done, boys. He's getting ROCKED in AAA IOWA. I'm glad we only have to pay him for what, another 4 years? Don't worry. The Cubs will win 101 games next year with Z going 1-25.

Neil,

I don't know about you, but I'm starting to get this sick feeling in my stomach that not only will we not make any deals before this deadline, but we also won't make any deals at the August 31st deadline either.

Do you feel the same way too? It's like earlier in the year, everyone could see we had problems, and Hendry did nothing. Now, it's even worse, and he's done nothing leading up to the deadline. We're now about 1 day and some change from the non-waiver deadline, and it doesn't appear anything is close. The way I see it with everything is following the old saying, "where there's smoke, there's fire". If we hear rumors about Fukudome, Theriot, Lee, Lilly, Nady, Baker, Marshall, and Fontenot, there's probably truth to that.

As we all know, Hendry tries to keep things close to the vest, but it's so obvious, that everyone else, including teams he deals with start talking. Why? My theory of it all is his trade partners talk to force his hand, because Hendry is VERY deliberate in almost every trade/FA deal he's ever made. He waits until the last minute most of the time, and the crazy thing is, especially FA-wise, is he almost always overpays for them, when it should be the complete opposite if you are deliberate.

We've had an extremely large amount of data to go off of with Hendry since 2002, and it doesn't look pretty. Sure, he landed Ceda, Burke, etc. in essential salary dumps, which helps a bit, but that's not really the point here. He's limited us so badly with all the no-trade, high dollar contracts that we literally can't do anything to improve this team, and have you noticed anything about the teams of 2002, 2005, and 2006 that were VERY bad? Young players, for the most part, didn't see time down the stretch. Why is this so critical? It did absolutely NOTHING for the franchise in terms of player development and setting the team up for the future.

We are at a crossroads, there's no question about it. Normally organizations have an outline of where they want to go. Do they want to be veteran dominated? Do they want to go young? Or do they want a mix of both? In all 3 cases, there's a plan you execute, and everything is measured off that plan. With veteran plans, normally teams use their systems to trade for proven veterans, and the same can be said for mixed teams for the most part. The painful thing to do, usually is to go young. You have to put up with growing pains and you might have losing seasons, but the rewards long-term are greater. Most teams end up having firesales, or lesser scale salary dumps to go young, then if their youth doesn't make quick strides, they'll sign veterans to 1 or 2 year deals as a bridge to their youth.

The Cubs have TOTALLY boxed themselves in there. Even if you had an all-world outfield prospect in the minors right now, he'd be blocked by Soriano, Byrd, and Fukudome, and even Colvin. Same for an all-world 3B or 1B.

Everything in this organization is messed up, and there's not many positives you can take away, and that's the most painful thing to watch.

Aaron, sorry for the delay time was very limited today.

I am beginning to wonder. The teams that were rumored to be interested in Lilly are making other moves (Matt Capps was just traded to the Twins for Wilson Ramos). I keep hearing Lilly will be moved and another team I've heard is the Padres ... which in my opinion would be a good fit.

I have been saying for a while that Hendry only has a few moves he could make. I have thought for a while that Lee would invoke his ntc/5 & 10 rights ... and I was right.

I hope Hendry is able to get something for Theriot (hearing only Rockies and D'Backs are still interested). I've mentioned I think Theriot is a non-tender candidate this winter and Bruce Miles said as much Wednesday ... Fontenot and Baker are also non-tender candidates in my opinion.

It seems Hendry is sitting by and doing nothing ... but at the same time he does not have much that other teams would want, outside of Lilly.

Aaron,

I've already posted it many times: the Cubs won't make a deal. You know why. JHendry AIN'T NO GENIUS. He can't figure out what to do.

1st. D. Lee sucks now and should be off the team.

2nd. He is a professional salaried employee... and like most of us that work, owe maximum allegiance to a) our family or b) our selves c) our company....

unless you work for the Red Cross or Habitat for Humanity or something, it'd be a lie or scary to claim otherwise.

3) Like we owe our companies nothing other than our time and effort ALREADY spent, neither does he..

4) 'C'mon its not a team first attitude. This bespeaks a level of naivete/immaturity not befitting this forum.

So given that Lee now sucks and should be gone, it's time to end the sanctimonious cruxification of his decision. Derek Lee has known and been a part of the Cubs for probably a fraction of the time most of the posters here have been fans... $$$$ Doesn't change the level of loyalty to his company for him anymore than it would me.

Great post Baron. However, many of the posters here and millions of Cubs fans are worried that DLee will be resigned again for next year. As much as you believe that its sanctimonious cruxification, bad publicity is bad publicity. Perhaps the public ourcry will make Cubs management think twice before it considers resigning DLee.

I guess Tejada is getting traded to the padres, makes me wonder if Hendry is actually working the phones at all.

Tejada only has more hr but only 18 more RBI's a lower average, less runs and no steals and is 5 years older then Theriot so why couldn't the cubs make that trade. Tejada's range and D isn't that great either.

It drives me nuts that this team hasn't made one move yet. I know it takes another team to be interested but come on how could Hendry not do anything yet. Is he asking the moon for the players or something, I mean they aren't all-stars but would be good back-ups for the stretch run for some clubs.

Also I applaud Oswalt for accepting a trade to the Phils because they still have a chance at the play-offs. He had veto ability but he's a competitor and wants to win. He has a wife and 2 kids but yet he didn't hide behind them and took the challenge of helping another team try to win a ring.

Yeah, Oswalt said point blank that he knew the Astros were rebuilding and, once they lost a lot, said he'd be more than willing to help with that rebuilding, whether it meant as an Astro or as a part of a trade. He knew he was getting up there and figured he would give the team he was a part of for the majority of his MLB tenure a chance to win.

Lets face facts here people: Derek Lee may have extraordinary issues in his family, but blocking a trade will not help his family. He is a professional baseball player who can settle down in one area to keep his family rooted, and afford to do that because he is making MILLIONS. Getting traded to a team doesn't mean his family has to pack up and leave: his family already is living in one area and will continue to do so after his Cubs tenure ends. He blocked a trade for purely selfish reasons. Period. I'm not looking at him as an "employee". I'm looking at him as a guy who plays a game and as a fan of the team he happens to play for. My heart goes out to his family for everything that has happened to them, really and truly. But this move would not inconvenience them at all. The only people it affects are the Cubs organization, the Cubs fans, and Derek Lee. And he chose to make a move that convenienced one of those three parties. And it wasn't us or the the organization.

Didn't know you knew Mrs. Lee so well. Please, stop declaring that you KNOW everything that would/could/might effect someone's family and home life that you know nothing about. It just isn't fair. It's just cowardly blogger crap. It's drivel. And Boseph, I know you by reading your comments that you're not one of those people.

I don't know why I keep defending this. Too many beers tonight I guess, and empathy for families and people, salaries not withstanding, careers or millions. Life is not black and white, not even for baseball players.

Oswalt's situation is completely different. He was under contract for 2 more years. The Astros do not have close to the resources the Cubs do to make major changes within that two years. And he wanted to be traded. I reckon that is all that matters. It was HIS call. He had the no-trade and made HIS decsion. Did he do it for the team - the Astros? I mean for those that want to talk about selfishness, do you really think Oswalt has been asking to be traded since May because he wanted to help the Astros? Not bloody likely. He did it for himself. He wanted it. And good for him.

Standing O for Boseph Heyden

I'm just bitter about this season

If Derrek Lee is only worth $1-3 million next year on the open market, I'm sure that merits $5-8 million on the Jim Hendry scale.

Lee's not dumb. It's no wonder he's staying in Chicago. You know Hendry will overpay for him just like he's overpaid for every other damned free agent.

It's unfathomable to me that Lee could be a Cub next year, but it was also unfathomable that Hendry could keep his job, and we see how that turned out.

That is worrisome: logic dictates Lee shouldn't even be considered for arbitration next year and had to already be deemed "expendable" since they tried to trade him. But...Hendry could just as well say Colvin is an outfielder, they need a first baseman, and resign Lee to a short term contract like that. And the only reason I can see him succeeding is because as bad as Hendry is at selling players, he's great at selling IDEAS. He caught Ricketts hook, line, and sinker with his rebuilding plans that don't seem to be working, and could sell him on needing Lee next season.

Guys are moving all over the damn place now and no news on Theriot, Lilly, Baker, Fontenot...

Rangers get Cantu and now want a 2Bman to fill in for Kinsler - Hey! We have THREE of em over here! I wonder if Hendry uses the innernets?

The Phillies just got tougher to beat. But the Astros did well in that. Look how much money they got out from under! And they got a solid young lefty. Can't help but think about the kind return Big Z could have brought this year had not jammed his head so far up his arse...

Speaking of that, looks like we get to see J.A. Happ more from now on.

Looking at Josh Vitters' number, I cannot help but believe that he is a bust.

His 31 and point seven per cent of getting on-base, .753 OPS throughout the minor, compounded with the fact that he has been injury-prone, while degraded at plates every time he was promoted, simply means the Cubs does not have a future third baseman.

The first round draft of 2008 was witnessed to have some prominent talents; Wieters, Heyward, Porcello, and Bumgarner, to name the apparent ones, all behind Vitters.

I'm not saying the Cubs needs to fire Jim Hendry, but some change, and perhaps sign Beltre before they find a solution at third base, might bring some long awaited need for future wins.

*draft of 2008

I know some folks will claim that Vitters is "still" 21 of age, and he might turn around and blossom in his later years, but hey, he's 3rd year into pro-ball, while shows no positive signs.

In this day and age, 21 still gives a player 2 to 3 more years before he can be considered a bust. What may effect Vitters more in the future is the abundance of infield prospect currently in the minors. With the presence of Starlin Castro and positive signs given by DJ LeMahieu, Ryan Flahrety, Hak-Ju Lee, and now Pierre LaPage, Vitters may not find an infield position available when he is ready. Strong armed third basemen with defensive issues are usually shipped to the outfield. If this happens, perhaps he can straighten out his offense and be ready to replace Soriano when his contract expires.

I'm looking for positives here.

Before 2010, Vitters has struck out an 129 times while only walked an astonishing low of 28, in 830 PA.

Not able to walk means not seeing enough pitches, and he would not learn plate discipline, vital to his survivor at the Major level.

This year, his walk/SO is 21/63. That's a tremendous improvement. If he can build on that after his rehab, then there will be more positives.

A professional player of age 21 have played competitive baseball for some 10-15 years. Vitters would have swung his bat 1000s of time under the instruction of a coach, and played some 100s of games now (probably 1000 if he started first grade).

Habits don't just change. Whatever he was taught, and his muscle memory remembers as the way of batting, he'll do it. Vitters probably needs another 3 years at least to get those straight again.

Right on Dorasaga! That is exactly my point. People shouldn't expect anything out of Vitters for quite some time, and when they do, it may not be how they first envisioned him.

*draft of 2007

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2007/draftcaster.jsp

Hey Diehard...Thanks for your service....it is much, much appreciated.

Re DLee...it really doesn't matter...except for saving @5 mill on his salary. He negotiated a no trade clause and used it...twice now.

I agree that if he wants to play next year...it will have to be for the type of money and length that Dye refused this year...UNLESS JH gets silly.

Just spent all day at the Hosp with my bro for another surgery...it was rescheduled for a month from now because he has a cold

...I'll always buy the "Family First" excuse...but as I said...it really does not matter in DLee's case...it's over for hiom here.

D Lee negotiated for the no trade clause in his contract. He took less money to stay with the Cubs than he could have received in the open market (and Cubs fans were very happy when he signed). He deserves the benefit of his bargain and if he doesn't want to be traded, it's his right an his choice ... there is noting wrong with it.

I also think there's a very good chance the Cubs bring him back for another year if he'll sign a one year deal ... Vitters isn't ready, Colvin has zero experience playing 1B in the majors or minors, and I don't see the Cubs spending big long term money for Dunn.

As I said in a previous post, most first basemen are converted from other postions (two thirds of the starting first basemen currently in the majors started their careers at other positions). The Cubs first baseman of the future will likely come from the abundance of infielders and catchers they currently have in the minors. A thinking-out-of-the-box solution for next year could be Robinson Chirinos. At 6'0"-190+, he's a little small, but if a sawed off runt like Pete Rose can play first, so can Chirinos. He's currently a catcher and a former shortstop, so handling low throws shouldn't be a problem for him. He's hitting .314 with 14 HRs, so he hits like a first baseman. His conversion to the position could be as quick as Jake Fox's to third base last year. With Hoffpauir, LaHair, and Blake Lalli available, the position can be adequately filled until a pospect emerges.

I totally disagree about D lee. I agree that his best days are behind him however he will be at 1st next year unless a Lilly trade brings a someone to play 1st. There are no FA this winter that are worth the money so Lee comes back at 3-5 million. How can you fault a guy to say he likes playing at Wrigley?

Because he stopped being good at it and prevented the team from getting better? Colvin can just as easily play 1st base, so it isn't like we don't have an option.

I just wish they would unload some of these guys, regardless what they get in return. I can't wait until rosters get expanded so we can see some different guys (hopefully).

What kind of return did we figure to get anyway on D-Lee? I bet it was mostly the Angels picking up the tab, rather than any meaningful prospects or players coming back this way. So I don't really care in the end.

The return would be that the Cubs would no longer have DLee clogging up the middle of the batting order. Anyone who can hit higher than .240 and not strike out or hit into a double play with runners on base would be refreshing.

I sure hope Hendry can cash in big time on Lilly since now it looks like Oswalt is off the board. Seems like the Dodgers don't seem to mind overpaying, so maybe they can get Dee Gordon even though I have read they don't want to give him up. But of course it will probably be someone like Xavier Paul.

I'm concerned about the Cub pitching roster. With Lilly and Silva possibly traded, Howdry thinking about retiring at the end of the baseball season,and pitcher's like Wells and others crumbling by the fifth inning, who's left?

Reports in that the Phillies - Astros have a deal in place for Roy O...now Roy has to OK it. I

If the Astros get Happ and a prospect, I'd say that made out.

I'd be very skeptical of taking Oswalt and his big contract. Don't get me wrong, he's a stud, but he's old and had a lot of back issues last year. But he and Halladay back to back is a pretty nice 1-2 punch.

Glad to see the old ineffective Big Z come back out.

He is done as a ML pitcher, at least for the Cubs.

I suspect though JH will not be able to get him traded though this off season.

He cannot even get rid of the mess he has now.

Aaron:

I get what you are saying, but maybe he loves playing for the cubs. If I was good enough to play in the MLB the only team that I would play for is the cubs.

A little more perspective on D Lee's no trade in this morning's Sun Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/2545822,CST-SPT-cub29.article

--------------

Lee, who hit his 300th home run last month, is hitting .333 with eight extra-base hits since July 6. So why not take a shot at a second World Series ring and approve that trade -- at a time the Angels were only five games out of first place?

''It was tempting,'' he said. ''A lot of thought went into it. ... But you're not the only one moving. It affects other people in your life. You have to discuss it with [family] and take all that into consideration.''

-----------------

Boy, what a SELFISH asshole! Thinking about his family before his loser team and you, me and the all of US!

I'm going to drop it now because frankly I think this is a ridiculous conversation. Let's talk baseball, not baseball players personal lives. The virtual leg pissing is juvenile and tiresome.

So. Let's keep up on the Lilly front and hope like hell he doesn't end up in Mannywood. How tragic would that be?

What did you expect Lee to come out and say, "I rejected the trade because I don't feel like moving or playing for a winner". No he used the PC move and said he didn't move because of his family.

Like Aaron said he's just going to move in a few months anyway to California so why not accept a trade there early (I'm assuming that's where he lives in the offseason)?

I would have had more respect for him had he come out and say I don't want to move, I like being a Cub and I wanted to play out my contract. But I don't think that is true either. There are no expecations on him here to perform at this point and had he accepted the trade he would have been under a great deal of pressure. I don't know if he can handle that anymore like he did a few years ago.

I completely disagree with your take on this Lee situation.

In professional sports, there is PLENTY of player movement. Peavy didn't have to move, Oswalt doesn't have to move. McGriff didn't have to come to us. Plenty of players throughout the years never had to move, but they DID. Why? Because it was a chance to go to a contender.

If you're in the last year of your career, sometimes it makes sense, and other times it doesn't, because you already might have a ring, etc.

But the fact is, Lee has already said he's not retiring. The Cubs are already planning to move on without him next year according to reports, so really what it boils down to is this:

1)Lee is going to have to move next year...That much is a given. Either a)He ends up like Dye and moves home to California, or b)Some sucker GM thinks he still has something left in the tank and signs him to a one year deal, but he will NOT receive more than that, unless he hits 20 bombs and 50 RBI in the last 2 months, which clearly ain't happening

2)Lee already has to know he's not going to be brought back next year, unless he plays for $1-3 million, which hell has a better chance of freezing over than that...so...he's clearly content with playing for a loser, then packing his bags and moving in the offseason to California (likely, because he won't know where he's going), thus uprooting his family anyhow

3)If Lee really is content with being on a losing team, then we don't need that type of person around. We had one of the best pitchers of the last generation (Maddux), come back to us, only to have the team come apart at the seams and we ended up trading him to the Dodgers for Izturis. Why? Because it was a courtesy to the accomplished veteran to move him to a contender. EVERYBODY in baseball knows this....Maddux I'm sure did NOT want to leave, but he also had a competitive spirit, which is PRECISELY what I'm talking about.

The Cubs do NOT need losing attitudes like Lee on the team. He is not a winner. If he was a winner, he would show some fire and intensity out there, not to the extent that Zambrano did, but at least Zambrano showed that he cares about winning and losing. When have you ever seen Lee fire up the team?!? He might be well respected in the clubhouse for being quiet. Hell, most quiet guys are respected, because they're thought of as "thinkers" or whatever.

The only two things that Lee proved to us by not accepting the trade was that he's not a team player, and is content with losing.

Do NOT use the family bullsh#t as a reason either. He's going to be moving to California in the offseason anyhow, and his kids will have to switch schools either in October or in December/January when he finds another team or has forced retirement like Jermaine Dye.

We'll see how much of a team player Lee really is this offseason. A lot of people on here keep harping on the fact that if we sit Lee or let Lee walk after the year, we don't have any options in the minors that are better (I happen to disagree, because of LaHair), but let's just assume you are correct, along with the others. The going rate for a first baseman that hits about .250-.260, has under 20 home runs, or just at 20 home runs, and about 50-60 RBI is about $1-3 million.

Therefore, if Lee accepts a deal in that range to stay with the Cubs next year, then he truly is a team player (and even then, I don't want him back). But if he's like Dye (which I think he is), and thinks he's worth $10 million still, then he's selfish, out of touch with reality, and was disingenuous all along.

We shall see who is correct in the offseason, but my money is on Lee just did this to stick it to the Cubs, because he knew Hendry wanted him gone, and has wanted to trade him the last 2 years, already having invoked his no-trade clause when approached before.

Thanks for the (somewhat) reasoned response. We simply disagree, Aaron. I think your response lost reasoning when you proclaim someone's personal decision within his family bullshit. You just can't do that. Well, you can, but it isn't right.

We disagree and are not going to change each others minds. I'm not going to comment on this anymore.

Aaron, I will have to agree with you on DLee. The family first argument doesn't fly and the family would not likely go with him to LA anyway until after the home is done. Like you pointed out they will be moving there later so I do not buy DLee's argument. Also, I do not want to hear about that crap about being apart. I spent years apart from my family in the Army and still do today because of my job.

I do not have that much sympathy for him. DLees argument is just not valid or justified.

DLee will not be a Cub next year from most account and will be moving anyway so forgive me for not being sympathetic. He is just looking out for himself. Besides, the Angels approached the Cubs and not the other way around.

If it was a family first decision, then I would think he would be annoucing his retirement. Now that would be a family first decision. He has made his millions.

Agree. I made that same decision when retiring from the Army. The Army was going to send me to my 4th tour in Iraq and my wife said NO so I turned in my paperwork and that was the end of it.

If in fact he is putting the family first then he should have retired.

No matter what he will be moving anyway because I will be shocked if he is back with the Cubs.

Thanks for serving and I'm glad you made it home safe.

Thank you. I have been retired for two years now. I did 30 of 43 months in Iraq from March 2004- November 2007.

I echo everyone else man. Thank you for your service. I have a few friends over right now as well as a cousin, so I know the sacrifices you've made, and I appreciate it greatly.

Thank you.