Please guys, do not pay attention to the rumor from Bleacher Report. The Cubs have plenty of areas that can be criticized ... let this one go.

If there is even any possibility that Marmol is going to a division rival such as the Reds then I will go on record as saying that JH is an idiot.

You should never trade a pitcher the caliber of Marmol to the Reds. We will regret that for years.

Nady with his bad day at 1B on Sunday hurt in my opinion his chances of going to the Rangers.

I have no issues with the rest of the rumors but would be surprised if Lilly ends up with the Yankees.

Marmol to the Reds? Doesn't even make sense to me. Trade a top closer to a divisional opponent, especially a team only a couple of players away from becoming the dominate team in the Central. I mean the Reds aren't the Pirates.

If they trade Marmol, it would have to be for top prospects. I think it will be another sign that we are going young. I say that because they must think that they need better young talent. Its the only thing that makes sense. Plus it shows that have a lot of faith in Cashner.

Haven't seen him as a Starter but what I've seen as a reliver I have liked. Good stuff with a attitude. Good mix for a closer. Reminds me of Woods with a better fastball(not quite as good with control of breaking ball though)

Agreed with Mr. Moreland...If the Cubs trade Marmol I am DONE!!!!!! I know the rule is sell high but the cubs have to obviously be high to sell on Marmol!! As they have not made any other moves. The ONLY exception would be for at least--

#1 Batting prospect

#2-5 Pitching prospect

And 1-2 mid level prospects

Overall, just a terrible rumor. You trade off high priced veterans, you do not trade potentially dominant lights out cheap young closers!!!!

Do it Hendry, Give me even more reason to dislike you!!!

Absolutely sell High, but not on guys that are difference makers.

You keep the difference makers and trade off the rest, when their stock is High.

I classify Marmol as a difference maker. Which would take quite the boatload of talent in return, including 2 future difference makers 1-2 years out.

oh boy...the hot stove is heating up, although, until more than one big trade happens (and right now, there's just Cliff Lee), I don't put much stock into it.

But, supposedly....

1)Ted Lilly is about to become a member of the Yankees, according to ESPN insider (which I don't belong to, so I can't read)

2)A deal between the Cubs and Reds, sending Marmol to them for top prospects is supposedly already in place: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/418939-mlb-trade-rumors-the-six-chicago-cubs-with-the-most-trade-value#page/7

3)Theriot to the Tigers is virtually dead, but Theriot to the Rockies is alive and kicking

4)Nady to the Rangers is also alive and kicking, though his propensity for GIDP's and his piss poor #'s overall can't be helping his case to get offloaded

Anyway, that's the only rumors that seem realistic to me. I wish I knew who we would get from the Yankees for Lilly, although from both the Yankees and Cubs perspectives, Montero makes sense. Why? Teixeira is locked in long-term at 1B. Cervelli has done a nice job receiving and hitting in place of Posada when he's DH, and Posada himself is locked in for this year and next year.

With Montero struggling with the bat, and rumored to be considered a 1B/DH type due to his poor receiving skills (21% CS this year, 70 SB, only 19 caught), he'll never be a full-time catcher, so a move to 1B is his only logical place, and he ain't replacing Teixeira that much is certain, and for DH, they need that spot available for a combination of AROD, Jeter (as he's getting older), and Posada for the next few years. So, you have to look at it from their perspective, that if they only have to give up one player for Lilly, the deal makes sense.

It'd be like Peavy to the Cubs straight up for Vitters. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

A rotation of Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte, Hughes, and Lilly would be unbeatable from their perspective, and if we really wanted to get creative, we could engineer a trade that would get Vazquez off their hands (which they want to do), and give them Fukudome straight up for him, and absorb the difference of contracts this year, and pay for half of Fukudome's contract next year, which would give them additional OF/DH options.

It's a no-brainer for us, AND for them Lilly and Fukudome straight up for Vazquez and Montero.

This would even appease the overly optimistic Hendry and Ricketts too, because Vazquez is no slouch on the mound.

Then, we turn around, and offer Nady to the Rangers for a mid-level prospect.

Then, we turn and offer Lee to the Angels straight up for the out-of-options and underperforming former uber prospect, Brandon Wood.

Then, we offer Theriot to the Rockies for a low-level projectable middle IF prospect

Then, we trade Fontenot and Baker to whomever we can.

Additionally, we trade/DFA Koyie Hill, Z (if we can find a taker...otherwise try to stash him away on restricted list), Berg, Grabow, and Howry

Then, we trade Silva to whomever is interested, and here's the corresponding roster moves:

1)Bring up LaHair to replace Nady

2)Insert Wood at 1B to replace Lee (and know that either LaHair or Wood can play 1B, and Wood can also play 2B, SS, and 3B in a pinch, so he'd essentially replace Baker in a way)

3)Bring up Camp to replace Fontenot

4)Bring up Barney to replace Baker

5)Bring up Snyder to replace Fukudome

6)Bring up Jay Jackson to replace Silva in the rotation

7)Insert Vazquez into Lilly's role in the rotation

I present to you the post-AS break Chicago Cubs roster:

Dempster

Vazquez

Gorzelanny

Wells

Jackson

Marshall, Russell, Cashner, Marmol, then 3 ? marks

Soto

Chirinos (I bring him up before Castillo because of age)

LaHair

Wood

Camp

Barney

Castro

ARAM

Soriano

Byrd

Colvin

Snyder

Brett Jackson (he'd essentially replace Theriot on the roster, but since we have Camp, Barney, and Wood that all can play both 2B and SS, it'd allow us to carry another OF)

If the Cubs don't do something like this, I've lost all faith in the organization. It'd be incredibly stupid if we didn't get a Montero type for Lilly, especially straight up.

While Cliff Lee is the superior pitcher, he still netted 4 players, including a couple top prospects. Here are their respective stats the past 4 seasons:

Lee (W-L, ERA, WHIP)

5-8, 6.29, 1.521

22-3, 2.54, 1.110

14-13, 3.22, 1.243

8-4, 2.64, 0.950

Lilly

15-8, 3.83, 1.140

17-9, 4.09, 1.226

12-9, 3.10, 1.056

3-8, 4.08, 1.155

So, while Lilly's #'s don't blow Lee away, they're far more consistent, and while Lee is 31 and Lilly is 34, they're both similar pitchers in that they don't have overpowering fastballs, but have excellent breaking pitches and fairly decent control (as evidenced by their WHIPs), which projects well even with age. If I'm Hendry, I'm arming myself with those stats to anyone that comes calling about Lilly. I ask for nothing less than their top prospect, plus a low level prospect. If they balk at that, I go with a straight up approach that I mentioned with Montero. I think teams would be FAR more receptive to that versus trading multiple top prospects in any trade for a veteran, as we all know prospects have become far more valuable than they were in the past.

Am I off base here?

Brandon, first off thanks for another great update.

Aaron, I checked ESPN and I have an insider account ... not much there. Mentioned the Rays as a possible destination for Lilly as well.

As for the "article" on Bleacher Report, please do not refer to anything on that site for "news". It is not a reliable source. A similar "report" hit the net on the 4th of July weekend about Marmol being sent to the Reds for prospects. The deal was supposed to happen before the Cubs left for the West Coast.

I did not open the link you posted because I am not going to give them any traffic. Way back when that was a good site but now it is not. No one is there to police the content. All they do is check for your grammer mistakes.

I have never "slammed" another website before and will not again. After all, I am just a little independent site. But one thing I do is double check all of my info (and sometimes triple check) before I post it.

yes you do, and you're very good at it on here....I just came across that juicy tidbit, so thought I'd post. I thought they were credible before, and hadn't been to their website in quite some time. If memory serves me correctly, about 2-3 years ago, they were spot on with a few rumors, I had no idea their content had gone downhill, but it makes sense. It seemed like an outrageous rumor, so thanks for checking.

As for everything else, I was wondering if you might weigh in on the rumors for Lilly, etc., as to where you think they'd go, and what they'd net.

I haven't heard at all who Lilly might net, and as for Nady, I heard a mid-level "projectable player", and for Theriot 1 or 2 low-level "projectable players". Fontenot, Baker, Lee, etc. I haven't heard anything on what they might net, along with Silva. Fukudome, the only substantial rumor I heard was the Lowell in a 3-way deal with the Twins.

What do you think? And did the ESPN thing give any indication on whom we might receive for Lilly?

ESPN did not but George Ofman (WGN Radio) said he heard Josh Thole was one of the names being discussed for Lilly.

As you know, he is a left-handed catcher for the Mets.

Neil, Josh Thole is a right-handed throwing lefty batting catcher for the Mets who is hitting about.280 or so in Triple A, as I remember, and supposed to be a defensive whiz.

They're losing with Marmol; if they're not gonna change managers in hope of firing up a listless squad of chokers, they can lose with Josh Thole. Back up the truck!

I guess I should have been more specific. Thole is supposed to be good defensely and the 'book' on him is that he is patient at the plate, can work counts and knows how to use the entire field. The Mets fans are not happy about the rumor.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tholejo01.shtml

Another few trade possibilities I thought of would involve:

Lilly and Theriot to Mets for Ike Davis and a mid-level prospect. They need middle IF help, and we need a 1B. Ike has impressed, but not nearly what the Mets were hoping for, so he might be available. Smoak was considered far more projectable than Davis, so this might make sense for us. In a pre-arranged move, you'd also have to move Lee, otherwise you reduce his trade value even further by acquiring another 1B in a trade.

The other one that has been mentioned on other sites is trading Fukudome to the Red Sox for Lowell, then flipping him to the Twins for a prospect.

One could also make the argument for a straight up Vernon Wells for Soriano swap, which would end up saving the Blue Jays $$. Soriano is NOT going to be OF material next year, much less 4 years from now when his deal expires. While Wells is probably the lesser player of the 2, he's also 4 years younger than Soriano (and we all know that Soriano is likely lying about his age). Wells currently has 19 hr, 49 RBI, 25 walks, 52 K's but a paltry .319 OBP (.265 avg, .524 SLG), and Soriano has 15 hr, 44 RBI, 29 walks, 69 K's (.269 avg, .342 OBP, .534 SLG).

Not counting this year, Soriano has 4 yrs, $76 million remaining on his deal, and Wells has 4 yrs $100 million left.

Wells deal is clearly worse, but if we could meet halfway with them, and split the difference, meaning take on about $12 million of Wells' contract, then a 34 year old Wells at the end of his contract would be a far better option than a 38 year old Soriano. Am I wrong?

Plus, I think Wells would improve under Jaramillo. Soriano has hit his ceiling, clearly with regard to how much Jaramillo will "help" him return to "glory".

Anyway, that's my humble opinion of all this.

I also believe that the Cubs should look to trade Zambrano to whomever loses out on Lilly. The most likely destination would be the Yankees (although I much prefer a swap straight up of Lilly for Montero)...if we were to offload Lilly to the Mets for Davis, it'd negate the need for Montero, and we might be able to get other projectable prospects. Plus, the Yankees could take on much more of Zambrano's salary than any other team right now, so it makes a lot of sense.

Right now, the MOST cumbersome salaries on this team are Soriano, Z, ARAM, Fukudome, Lee, Lilly, and Dempster. After the season, Lee and Lilly are gone anyway, so we might as well trade them. I would NOT trade Dempster, as I believe he's the consummate professional and "team player". ARAM will probably not opt out of his deal given his poor performance, so that means you have to look to offload him as well. Then, it becomes a situation where you have to match up bad contracts with each other in trades, and that's why you'd look to deal Fukudome for Lowell, Soriano for Wells, and perhaps even Z for Vazquez (although the Yankees would have to pay Z more for a few more years, they can certainly absorb that). And as far as ARAM is concerned, the risk/reward of a trade at this point isn't very good.

On one hand, ARAM has an EXCELLENT track record of success...probably better than any other guy we have on the roster. On the other hand, he's NEVER had a worse season than this one, and given his age, it pretty much diminishes all trade value he has. Therefore, it's best to hope he exercises his option for next season, then pray he turns it around next season, and you deal him for top prospects at the deadline.

For those of you doubters out there (in terms of these trade suggestions), please keep in mind that both New York teams have NEVER been afraid of trade top talent at the deadline for players they hope will push them over the top, even if the veterans they receive are considered slightly below the top echelon of players such as (Nady, Marte, etc.). If the Pirates can get Tabata, etc. for those guys, then the Cubs certainly can get Montero for Lilly. Such is the cost of doing business when you're loaded with resources like the Yankees are. Also, keep in mind, the Mets made a deal to acquire Victor Zambrano a few years ago, and they dealt none other than Scott Kazmir in that misguided trade.

If we trade with anyone else, we'd almost be assured of having to kick in money in any trade involving Z and Lilly...but the NY teams we probably wouldn't have to.

Aaron, I'm thinking with his NTC Soriano wouldn't likely approve a move to Toronto. About the only team I could see him even thinking about would be the Yankees. I remember he was pretty upset to be traded from there.

Now they have Burnett locked up at about 16.5m until 2013 and he had been struggling. He's been better in July. But even then Soriano has an extra year at 18m.

I think you are off base, in your assumption that Brian LaHair, Chirinios, Camp, Brad Snyder, and Darwin Barney are all capable of being Major League starters. Unless our objective is to tank the rest of the season and lose 100 games, that lineup is ridiculous. Of that collection, Barney projects as a nice backup, Chirinios is a question mark, and everyone else is a AAAA body.

That's assuming, of course, GMs are all lining up to take on more payroll, which is in itself an erroneous assumption. Only a handful are.

I like the possible scenario thinking, nothing wrong with that, but I would rather think about reality.

PS: If that Marmol Rumor is TRUE, then to me that would have to be a truckload of value in return. Marmol is cheap, under club control 2 more years, and firmly established by now as a lights-out closer. I can't see the Cubs pulling the trigger on him, but I could be wrong.

I agree and I also agree about Marmol

If they trade him they better get some real sure things. I cant see that at all.

Keith,

I don't think I'm off base at all regarding those suggestions. Are they better than what we have? Nope. Are they worse than what we have? Nope. Are they cheaper than what we have? You bet your ass they are! And that, in itself is the reason to go with them. At their age, they quite obviously have a higher ceiling than any of our current veterans. I never said they'd put us over the top, but at the same time, they'd energize this club, and get us far more wins than we have right now in my opinion. There's absolutely no way we make the playoffs with our current team, or even with the suggested changes I made, so what the hell is the difference?!? Plus, we'd at least be able to evaluate our late 20's minor leaguers to see if they project as back-up at the MLB level in subsequent seasons.

All of the players I mentioned, other than Brett Jackson, are considered back-ups and no more. Guys like Snyder, LaHair, Camp, Barney, Chirinos, etc. are all back-ups.

But if we're getting virtually no production from Theriot, Fontenot, Baker, Lee, Nady, Fukudome, and Koyie Hill, what the hell is the problem with trying something new to energize the team?!?!?!? These guys will be fighting for MLB jobs, and will come out hungry, unlike all the veterans we have signed to multi-million long-term deals (in most cases), who have already made their money in the game.

As for the Marmol deal, again, it's just something I came across, as I posted that link, but NOT something I advocate doing, as he's the most "lights out" closer right now in the game, and while it'd definitely be selling high, we do not have anyone in our organization capable of being an MLB closer, and that even includes Cashner, which means we'd be right back in the same position that led to such ill-advised trades/signings as Aguilera, Rojas, Gregg, and such ill-advised conversions such as Dempster, and such ill-advised short-term solutions as Borowski, etc. Marmol definitely has the moxy to handle the late-game situations, and he comes right now at a fraction of the price a veteran closer would come at.

In my mind, he'd be worth at least Joey Votto in a trade, and there's no way the Reds make that trade.

I have to agree with you. If they trade Marmol it better be for someone really good because he is one of the better closers in the game right now, this team just never gives him a chance to get a save. I hate to seem him go, but if they can get a really good impact bat in return it would almost be worth it.

I agree with Ottawa Bob, you cant count on of these guys. This organization thought Rich Hill was untouchable and Felix Pie would be our CF for 10 years. I was at the Cubs Season Tix appreciation day, and Crane Kenny told me they could have traded Rich Hill straight up for Cliff Lee, but he was considered "untouchable". This was during a conversation related to their inability to evaluate talent, and he ended the conversation with "Maybe you should be the GM". He's a total DBAG and blamed Soriano, on McDonough, all pre-2006 drafts on former Scouting director John Stockskill. Hendry had nothing to do with it (yeah right).

Goldstein has always clashed with Wilken and his choices, dating all the way back to his choices in Tampa and Toronto.

Kevin Goldstien of Baseball Prospectus was on the WGN pre-game show, and was very high on Hak-ju Lee, as well as Brett Jackson and Trey McNutt. When asked about the young talent on the Cubs, he loves Cashner but thinks he needs to go back in the rotation (I agree), and isn't at all sold on Colvin. He also thinks Darwin Barney will prove to be a very useful ML Reserve, as he hustles and can play multiple positions (just doesn't have the power for everyday duty).

He was also asked about Vitters; Goldstien said though he's not doing well, give it time, he is young for AA (which he is), and you can't give up on someone with that type of bat speed.

As shakey as Hak-Ju Lee looked tonight during the XM futures game I guess its a positive that an A-ball prospect played in what looked to be an AA/AAA all-star game. I just think its way to early to pencil him in as our starting shortstop in a few years. I'm not trying to offend Neil or any of the other posters here. But I've grown tired of over-hyped Cubs' prospects never panning out. Believe me, I hope he's the next Derek Jeter, I'm just not sold on someone that far away.

Darwin Barney, Iowa SS, is supposed to be the guy on the fast track to the Bigs, not Mr. Lee, who really did look shaky. And How about Brett Jackson getting picked off of base? It souods as if he'd fit right in.

I have to agree with you. I'm still waiting on Corey Patterson and Felix Pie to live up to their "potential" that everyone seemed to talk about.

Give me break. Just because Patterson didn't pan out doesn't mean that no one can. Patterson was rushed-up, pressured to do more than should have been expected and generally mismanaged.

Ditto Felix Pie, and the book isn't closed on him yet.

There you go again JC. Both Patterson and Pie sent just as much time in the minors as Colvin has but you want him to play right away.

They were just not that good. They peaked in the Minors. But I will agree that it doesn't mean that every prospect will not work out.

If Pie or Patterson wer going to work out, they would of shown signs of it by now.

For every 10 prospects 1 maybe 2 become steady major leaguers. This is not a offical stat. I'm just generalizing.

But every prospect that comes up isn't mismanaged if they dont work out.

I think are confused - with who you are responding to and what you are talking about. Patterson was 22 when first called up.

'03 was Patterson's second full season, he was just 23 and was clearly playing like a young prospect. He had a great first half after a decent first full season at the age of 22. Then he had a season ending injury. In '04, I argue that he still had a pretty good season, struggled, but produced a good line for a 24 year old leadoff hitter.

By 2005, you can say the Cubs were playing for the World Series, but they weren't. They were a mediocre team that year and you and lots of others blame Patterson for a too much of it. It is ironic, since you are the one that continually defends playing the .240 hitting Fukudome, .320 OBP Theriot, etc and get all huffy when someone blames them. Quit ironic.

I don't know what your point about Colvin is. He has not been rushed, he has been anything but pressured to perform, unless you mean holding down the bench and being pressured to get a pinch hit in long lost game.

Man. I am pretty sure you just like to go at it with me. That's fine. I enjoy it too. Cheers.

I' not saying no one can pan out, I'm just saying I'm not going to get excited over some of the younger players who are still years away. It is great to see them doing well in the minors, but that doesn't mean jack if they can't hack it in the majors.

Soon we`ll be saying Castro was brought up to fast, we shouldnt have brught him up until right around now

I didn't say that. Castro was ready and most importantly he is playing everyday and without much pressure to carry a mediocre team. Because this team isn't even as good as mediocre.

Come on, Castro is doing quite well for a 2o year old rookie, wouldn't you say? I think he is doing great.

Patterson was having a helluva year in '03 at 23 - his second full season - when he got injured and missed the entire second half. Then at 24 years old he had a 91/24/32/72 line. One year later and with Dusty's team's downward spiral becoming a tailspin, he starts jerking him around and leads to the vote of no confidence for a developing kid. He was bruised instead of developed.

But by your definition, they rushed him up. If Pie and Patterson were rushed up, then you would have to say the Castro has been. There's still a lot of pressuer for a 19 year old that was expected to spark this team into winning. especially when he's not really that type of player. Not a homerun guy or RBI guy. Castro I would probably agree that he is been rushed. But I would also agree that overall he has done a decent job. Under the circumstances.

Plus in bouth situations, Pie and Patterson, the cubs were trying to win a world series. How can you justify running a guy out there batting .210 and .190 everyday. You cant they were not getting the job done. But neither were rushed up.

Once again i disagree. I will admit that he was having a good season before he got hurt. But the league figured out that he was a free swinger and then he started struggling.

he was very athletic and it got him far but when he got to the big leagues were you have to be more than athletic, he struggled.

Same with Pie, except he never did good.

You can get away with having holes in your game in the minors. But they get taken advantage of in the majors.