We prob need some all star position players to finally come through the system like the yanks did wit jeter, posada, and rivera to finally win the series. Hopefully castro, vitters, and cashner are the real deals.

Thanks for the Levity Neil.
1-How nice is it to see Cubs players celebrating something?
2- How nice is it to hear a post game conversation with the skip and not hear.... "well we put em out there the best we know... and hope for the best... what can you do???"
3-I LOVE ME SOME RYNE SANDBERG!!!!
---As an aside one of the coolest moments in my Cub Fan Life was on my B-Day 8/8/05. I was at the ballpark, the Cubs were playing the Reds and it was a night game. I wandered down the councourse and I saw a floppy white hat. I said that can be no other than Yosh. and standing next to him was Mr. Sandberg, just a few days after his stirring, timeless, perfect HOF induction speech. I did not have a pen, I did not even say hi. He and Yosh were talking and I thought it presumptuous of me to go up and tell him he was my all time hero for the WAY he played the game. That WAY is why I have vocally, and adamantly stated that I want him as the manager ASAP.

And finally, Let's not start name calling people. One of the best part s about this site is that you do not have the incessant, and awful name calling. Disagree yes, argue yes, but let's keep it respectful and classy.

Anybody (Neil) know what Ryan Flaherty is up to. He was a supplemental pick a year or two ago. Sounded like he was highly regarded middle infielder.

I'm a Chicagoan transplanted in Maine and the kid played ball 2 blocks from me.

Here's a link to his stats page ... sorry forget it before.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=475247

Going back to a Granderson trade and what I think is a fair trade:

Propose trade:
Cubs get Curtis Granderson
Tigers get Hak-Ju Lee, Jake Fox, Sean Marshall, Chris Carpenter and Ty Wright.

Lets look into the trade: Hak-Ju Lee is a SS and the Cubs have a young kid coming up who is Starlin Castro and he is expected to be a star. Jake Fox has no place on the team and have to be in the DH roll. Sean Marshall is a good lefty but the Cubs got Tom Gorzelanny is is pretty much the same pitcher and same age. Chris Carpenter is a good pitcher but you have to throw a good player in to get a good player. Ty Wright pretty much has no place on the team with all these young outfielders coming up and don't forget about the long ass contract of Soriano. I think this will be enough because the Cubs aren't giving up there top prospects which would be good.

If you wasnt to know more of what I think, here is the rest (on my blog):

http://waldo7239117.blogspot.com/2009/11/jim-callis-cubs-best-team-to-land.html

Thoughts?

Waldo, for myself...It will take a little time to formulate a game plan for
Granderson. Just off the cuff...it appears that the Cubs will be vying for
Granderson's services against at least the Yankees and Angels...So I think it will take a more attractive package to land him...not quantity but quality.

Also, Bradley has been linked with Detroit (rumors)...so I have absolutely
no clue how it will play out.

I will say this much...our farm system
is just starting to show signs of being a little better...with an aging team at the majors level...JH has to make sure
he doesn't gut it again.

Soriano may have a long contract...but I don't think he will be able to play all
5 years effectively.

Neil, I note that a player must file for
free agency within 15 days after the WS.

What happens if they don't...are they considered retired?

ie...Chad Fox hasn't filed yet.

Suzy that is a good question, I read somewhere that they stay on the same team until they do declare for free agency and they can not talk to any team. That usually happens whe a player is about to retire.

I did not relpy to you Suzy because I am not Neil and I will let neil reply because you ask him. I just wanted to say my opinion.

gag me, then gag me some more.

Trading 3 top prospects (I don't care what level they're at), for a guy coming off a season in which he hit .249, with a .327 OBP, and 72 walks to 141 K's and a fairly hefty contract in the next couple of years is NOT the way to go, especially when he will be 29 years old next year. Yes, he hit 30 hr, 71 RBI, but for a "speed" type of guy, he had just 20 SB.

So, if you have to give up more than spare parts on the MLB roster, and maybe one decent prospect, I think it's entirely too much for him. Look what the Braves gave up for McLouth. That should be your barometer right there for how much to give up. Also, I know the power #'s weren't there, but what we gave up for Pierre should also be indicative of what Granderson is worth.

McLouth was worth 1 above average OF prospect, 1 MLB ready pitcher, and one low-level high ceiling pitcher with bad stats.

For Pierre, we gave up Mitre, Nolasco, and Pinto, which equates to a marginal prospect with average to below average success at the MLB level in Mitre, a high ceiling starter in Nolasco, and a mid-range prospect in Pinto that could either be a starter or reliever.

SO the question is, what is a decent AND appropriate offer?

The Tigers don't appear to be in rebuilding stage like the Pirates and Marlins were, so a good starting point would be MLB ready talent.

I would offer them Marshall, Fox, and Soto for Granderson. It'd fill their void at catcher, which they're unsatisfied with. It'd give them a DH in Fox that can crush the ball, and he's low cost, and it'd give them a starter/reliever that's had very good success at the MLB level in both roles.

If they balk at that, and want young talent instead, I'd offer them Barney/Blanco for SS, Colvin for the OF, and Carpenter.

But there's absolutely NO way you offer up guys like Castro, Cashner, W. Castillo, Vitters, Hak Ju Lee, Jay Jackson, Flaherty, Burke, etc., for a guy like Granderson. Essentially, Granderson is a less powerful, lefty version of Soriano that doesn't belong anywhere near left-handed pitching.

You bankrupt your system for future trades when you pull crap like that, which is what Hendry did when he let Veal go in the Rule 5, when everybody knew he'd be selected, thus losing a trade chip, and then he let Ceda go in the Gregg deal, and he traded away Pie for essentially Gathright when all was said and done (even though Gathright was a FA). So, right there, he lost 3 valuable trade chips in Veal, Ceda, and Pie, and we got nothing, Gregg, and Gathright out of it.

What about a slugging OF for RF? What would we trade for that? What about a starter, or relief? What would we have left? What happens if Castro fails, then you don't have Hak Ju Lee, who by all accounts, seems like the next Ichiro, and even swings like him? We do NOT need to get older! If you're going to make trades that give up a lot of talent, you better make damn well sure it's for someone in their mid to early 20's, like a Votto, Bruce, Hanley Ramirez, Evan Longoria, David Wright, Prince Fielder, Ryan Braun, etc., and NOT a guy that is expensive, and league average or below in every other category except for home runs. PLUS, is one year from beginning decline.

The Yankees did this, and bought their way out of being horrible when their veteran acquisitions didn't work out, but their organization as a whole, took a step back. They realized that they had to recommit themselves to player development as they did with Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, Williams, Posada, etc., that were so instrumental in the late 90's championships. They won it all this year with the likes of old homegrowns that I just mentioned, sans Williams, plus the likes of Hughes, Chamberlain, Coke, Cano, Cabrera, Gardner, Aceves, Robertson, etc. Sure, they made the trade for Swisher and Nady/Marte, but they didn't give up a lot to get them, and they've been reluctant to include the likes of Montero, Cano, or Austin Jackson in trades.

We can't lose sight of the fact that our lineup will average 32 years of age as it stands right now for next season. Soriano and Lee will be 34. ARAM will be 32, Bradley will be 32, Fukudome will be 33. Theriot, Hoffpauir, and Fontenot will be 30, and Soto will be 27. K Hill will be 31, Baker will be 29, Fox will be 27, and Miles will be 33. If you add Granderson, you'd probably either trade/release Hoffpauir, or trade Jake Fox. Obviously Bradley is gone, so that will make us younger, but who will we have to add? Are you getting my point?

In just 2 years, we should have all of the following players ready for MLB service:

C- Welington Castillo, Clevenger, Brenly
1B-Ridling
2B-Flaherty, LeMahieu, Thomas
SS-Lee, Castro
3B-Vitters
OF-Burke, Colvin, B. Jackson

If I were a betting man, I'd say that our lineup just might look like this in 2 years if Hendry is smart about it (not likely):

Hak Ju Lee-CF
Castro-SS
Burke-RF
ARAM-1B
Vitters-3B
B Jackson-LF
Castillo-C
Flaherty/LeMahieu-2B

Colvin is probably on the outside looking in, and Vitters is in danger of being passed up by Flaherty if he can't stay healthy, or if he can't pick it up at advanced levels. If Vitters is passed up, and traded, then you'd simply either leave ARAM at 3B (re-signing him), and have Flaherty play 1B or flip-flop them, and insert LeMahieu at 2B.

This much is true though, Marshall, Fox, Hoffpauir, Fontenot, Theriot, Lilly, D. Lee, Soriano, Bradley, Fukudome, Grabow, Miles, Heilman, Blanco, Baker, K Hill don't appear to figure into our long-term plans...even 2 years from now. Some are under contract and some have no trades----true.....but either you trade them now while some still have value, or you risk letting them go for nothing, or decreasing their value even further this year.

Yes, not many teams will take your cast-offs, but a handful of these guys still have decent value, like Lee, Lilly, Theriot, Fox, Marshall, and possibly Baker. The prudent thing to do, is either package some of these surplus guys like a Theriot (when we already have Barney, Castro, Blanco, and even Hak Ju Lee waiting in the wings), Marshall, Fox, and Baker, and get yourself a Granderson-type, thus clearing space for young guys now. Then, next offseason, you simply bank on the fact that you'll have an internal candidate, or be able to re-sign Lee to a one year extension, or another veteran to a one year extension, buying 1 more year for your players to be ready.

This is called a STRATEGIC PLAN...something TOTALLY foreign to the prior Tribune ownership and Jim Hendry. You have to look at what you got, estimate how long it'll take for them to be ready, then start signing guys to short-term deals, and moving guys via trades to clear space. This is what the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Angels, Cardinals, and even the low-budget, "small" market Marlins have done in recent years. The Cubs haven't figured this out yet. They locked up their entire OF last season, essentially for the next 3 years, at HUGE $$$, thus prohibiting future moves and blocking deserving young talent (if there was any). If you look at teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc., you almost always have 2 or 3 positions that could be upgraded at any time, because they haven't locked huge dollars into that position, creating immovable contracts if it doesn't work out. You almost always see a 2B, CF, LF/RF vacancy which they seem to plug with one year rentals, or allow their young talent to get acclimated to, and if they happen to find a good solution long-term, they'll lock him up, but it's almost always a young player like a Cano, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Melky Cabrera, Brett Gardner, Lowrie, etc. that'll see the action.

We all know how awful the Giants were when they had their senior citizen lineup up there a few years ago. This is coming to Wrigley Field next year, and future years if Hendry is still around. It will get very ugly.

Sure, if you put in the lineup I mentioned above with guys like Castro, Lee, Vitters, Burke, etc., it might be ugly for a season, but I believe with the right manager (Sandberg or Girardi), a team like that could thrive for a VERY long time, because you'd have significant speed at the top, power with Vitters, Burke, ARAM, Jackson, Flaherty, and LeMahieu, and excellent defensive catcher that has shown good flashes of offense, and a SS who could develop power, and turn into a Hanley Ramirez type, or at worst, probably an Edgar Renteria. What's not to like about that.

I have never been so excited, and at the same time, so scared to be a Cubs fan. The reason I'm scared, is what I just mentioned to you about Hendry's trade history. He's shown he is willing to give up very talented prospects in favor of marginal MLB veterans. In every single trade, sans the ARAM and Lee deals, he's been hosed in terms of value received/given in trades. Think about the DeRosa trade for a minute. You realize he traded one of the hottest players at the trade deadline this past season (whom the Cards gave up 2 top prospects in Perez and Todd), and we got 3 pitchers, none of which were on the Indians top prospects list...not a single one of them, and 2 were playing older than their league talent (Gaub and Stevens). So, consider his moves like that, and you'll begin to pray that we go the free agent route to satisfy needs, rather than trades. Or, if we trade anyone, you better hope it's an MLB surplus type like Fox, Hoffpauir, Theriot, Marshall, etc., because you know he can't screw a trade like that up badly. He, could, however, screw a trade up that involved a Soto, or Lilly.

You can bet that Hendry will get suckered into giving the moon for Granderson, which falls in line with what some of you suggested above. You can bet he might just give up: Hak Ju Lee, Cashner, Burke, Flaherty, and maybe even a 5th player.

Aaron,

I tend to agree with you that we should not deal top prospects for Granderson for a number of the reasons you mentioned.

The question though was what would it take to get Granderson and that may be where we disagree. Your proposal of what we should trade for Granderson makes sense for the Cubs, but there is no way I'd make that deal if I'm Detroit (and if you were a Detroit fan you wouldn't like the deal from Detroit's perspective either). To make the McLouth comparison, Gorky Hernandez was ranked similary to Vitters going into the 2009 season ... so if we use the McClouth deal as a standard (McClouth is a similar player to Granderson so it's a decent comparison though I think Granderson is the better acquisition), then we'd need to include at least one top tier prospect, plus 2 decent propsects. Soto, Fox, and Marshall don't fit the bill.

Aaron, Good post...I'm still sitting on the fence re Granderson...he would be a -plus addition to what we have...but then he can't hit lefties which is all we heard about for almost 2 seasons now.

So I'm not even sure if he is really a solution. And to be honest, until Hendry
does the Bradley thing...and what that involves (periphial players/player(s) coming back etc...we really don't know
what our true need will be...of the proposals I've seen...there's not one I like...but who knows?

I didn't suggest we give up all that...It's just if I'm the Tigers...that's who I ask for first.

Hendry is on record saying he doesn't see us needing a lot this offseason...
or making any blockbuster moves...

Ricketts. in one of his inaugural speeches said team improvement would come through the minor leagues.

According to a blog I read "Road to Wrigley" which keys in on the minor
leagues at ChicagoNow.com...the Cubs were 26th last season in spending to sign their draft picks. That's where Ricketts needs to upgrade the budget.

If Detroit does trade Granderson...with the Yankees and Angels involved...I suspect Hendry won't get that aggressive
in pursueing him.

I found this sight to be pretty good reading re the cubs minor league system.

Lets hope I get the link right!!!

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

There are several posts, of particular interest to me was ""Preparing for the Rule 5 Draft" and "The Easiest Decision
for Ricketts to Make".

I still think a package of Bradley, Soto, and mid level prospect like Carpenter and a couple million cash, for Granderson and Laird would be enough. I believe Laird is in the 2 million dollar range plus Grandersons contract means we will end up spending a couple million on this deal, but then you flip Laird in another deal and Start K Hill behind the plate, with Clevenger or Castillo getting some time as back up.

Detroit is desperate for a cheaper better hitting option behind the dish. Soto proved to us this past season he is going to be lazy with success. We do not need those types of players to get to the next level.

This is what the Trib had to say:
*****************************************
A Cubs offer could be built around 19-year-old shortstop Starlin Castro, who is emerging as one of the top prospects in the minors. Third baseman Josh Vitters, 19-year-old Korean shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and minor league pitching from a group including Andrew Cashner, Jay Jackson and Chris Carpenter also could be part of deal.

A Cubs source suggests a Granderson offer also could include low-priced veterans whom the Tigers either could keep or move elsewhere. Those players include Jake Fox, Micah Hoffpauir, Tom Gorzelanny, Aaron Heilman, Mike Fontenot and Aaron Miles.
*****************************************

If the first part is true, then that is the worst deal I've ever heard in my life. If you trade Castro plus prospects, or Vitters plus prospects....no way is that a good deal. I could see that for maybe a Teixeira, Beltran (in his prime), AROD, etc. type of player, but NOT a Granderson.

I would like to think that they're right about the last part, about hearing the deal would include low priced veteran cast-offs. I think a fair deal would include what I mentioned earlier, but also, possibly:
Fox, Colvin, Coleman, and Fontenot for Granderson and some mid-level prospect, or....

Hoffpauir, Fox, Marshall, Colvin, and Coleman for Granderson and a low-level prospect
or....

Gorzelanny, Fox, and Colvin straight up for Granderson.

I'm serious about looking at past trades when making the call. Gorkys Hernandez might've been rated as a top OF prospect, but not many scouts were high on him at all. Keep in mind that Pie was once the flavor of the week, but a lot of scouts weren't high on him. A lot of players have been that way. Hernandez, based on his track record should NOT have been listed as a top prospect. Neither should Colvin (which he's not anymore).

I still think the Tigers will want Soto, and I know for a fact that a recent ROY catcher at 27 yrs old next year, coming off a down year, will still be worth an awful lot. Combine Soto with a Marshall, and just those 2 alone might be enough. Think about it for a minute...who else can offer more than that? Last time I checked there wasn't any recent ROY catcher in his prime available from other teams, and if there was, that catcher would likely command a few top prospects in return alone. So, factor that in when you're thinking about trade scenarios. Ask yourself, "what would ________ require in a trade?"

Fox-mid-level prospect (meaning top 10, but below top 5), or 2 high ceiling low-A prospects

Hoffpauir-merely a throw-in

Gorzelanny-Hart was traded for Grabow, so we know that the perceived value of Gorzelanny is either a top pitching prospect (Ascanio) and a low-level prospect

Marshall-His book of stats is better than Gorzelanny, and he has good stats as both a starter and reliever, and a very nasty curveball. Therefore, his value might be 2 good prospects, or maybe a top prospect and a mid-level prospect.

Fontenot-maybe a low-level prospect at best

Colvin-no value by himself in a trade, but combined with more talent, he'd bring a greater return given his age.

Coleman-most likely not much value, but perhaps a low level prospect

Soto-difficult to gauge, because we really haven't had a ROY guy traded recently just 2 years after he won...furthermore, we haven't really seen a good hitting catcher be traded recently, so all we have to go off of is his ROY stats, and his somewhat decent offensive year last year. Given his ROY status, and the fact he's an above average catcher as a whole, I'd say we could get a very decent return for him, especially coming 2 yrs removed from a .280+avg, 20+hr, 80+RBI campaign, which you just don't see from catchers these days.

But there's no way I go above that, and start offering our top prospects, because other teams sure as hell aren't doing that for slightly above average players.

Aaron, the report is from Phil Rogers. I am going to post it, because it is from the mainstream media ... but consider the source.