Two years ago it was Brian Roberts, last winter Jake Peavy. Will this off-season be filled with one Curtis Granderson rumor after the other? Outside of Milton Bradley, the Chicago native has made the most noise in Cubs' circles since the rumor surfaced he could be available this winter.
At the forefront of the Curtis Granderson-to-the-Cubs rumor mill has been Phil Rogers ... and the Tribune reporter tossed out two more trade scenarios Friday night that could have Granderson patrolling centerfield for Lou Piniella next season.
After stating on Wednesday that the Cubs should trade Carlos Marmol and Starlin Castro for Curtis Granderson, Phil Rogers suggested two different packages the Cubs could offer to the Tigers.
According to the report in the Tribune, if the Tigers make Curtis Granderson available then Jim Hendry and the Cubs would be "interested in offering a prospect-heavy package of players."
"A Cubs offer could be built around 19-year old shortstop Starlin Castro, who is emerging as one of the top prospects in the minors. Third baseman Josh Vitters, 19 year-old Korean shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and minor-league pitching from a group including Andrew Cashner, Jay Jackson and Chris Carpenter also could be a part of the deal."
A Cubs source suggested to Rogers that a package of "low priced veterans whom the Tigers could either keep or move elsewhere could be enough for Granderson. Rogers listed Jake Fox, Tom Gorzelanny, Micah Hoffpauir, Aaron Miles, Aaron Heilman and Mike Fontenot as players that could be included in a trade for Granderson.
Rogers stated the players mentioned with major league experience could either be kept in Detroit or traded elsewhere.
Phil Rogers indicated Jim Hendry and Dave Dombrowski "spoke about Granderson and other Tigers players during the GM meetings."
The two "packages" Phil Rogers mentioned are from one end of the spectrum to the other. One would empty out a weak farm system that showed signs of improvement last season ... and the other would be a case of trading quantity over quality.
So which one would it be? Maybe a combination of the two?
As Keith Law reported, if the Cubs trade for Curtis Granderson they might want to re-sign Reed Johnson. Granderson simply cannot hit lefties and should be platooned.
How could the Cubs, or any other team for that matter, trade their top prospects for a platoon player that is showing signs of not be worth his contract in a couple of years.
Keith Law clearly stated, "a team acquiring him needs to consider a right-handed hitting platoon mate, and be sure that they don't overpay expecting him to be an every-day guy."
Buster Olney talked about Granderson in his blog Friday. Most of the report is by subscription only and cannot be published but Olney brought up several good points.
His OPS dropped 78 points last year and has fallen around 133 points since 2007. Olney said Jim Leyland did not play Granderson early in his career against lefties but has in recent years and the weakness has been exposed. Olney spoke with one evaluator that said Granderson is "basically an out" when facing left-handed pitching.
Olney finished with an important statement about Granderson. "It's unlikely that anybody is going to hand over a couple of big-time prospects for him because of his lefty-righty splits."
Curtis Granderson's Page from Baseball Reference.com
Lynn Henning of the Detroit News mentioned a possible package from the Cubs that included Starlin Castro, Josh Vitters and Andrew Cashner ... and if the Cubs would not do that package, they should hand over Carlos Marmol.
While fans have a tendency to over-value players on their favorite team, beat writers can be guilty of the same from time to time.
Jim Callis from Baseball America told Phil Rogers he thinks the Cubs have enough to land Granderson ... and it could take a package that included Starlin Castro or Hak-Ju Lee, Josh Vitters and one of Andrew Cashner, Jay Jackson or Chris Carpenter.
Somewhere between Phil Rogers and Lynn Henning is a package the Cubs could offer Detroit for Curtis Granderson ... it just depends on how much Jim Hendry is willing to "pay" for an above average defender that can hit right-handed pitching very well.
Stay Tuned ...
Getting Granderson would help fill many of the Cub's holes. He would be the leadoff hitter, play center to move Fukudome to right and lots of speed. However this trade will not happen especially after Tom Rickets said that the Cubs need to make their farm system better. Getting Granderson would demolish the farm system completely.
Granderson is ideally not a lead off hitter. He is basically Alfonso Soriano but with the range to play center field. Ideally, he should be a 5 or 6 hitter.
Has anyone else seen any other further reports about the Tigers looking to trade for a catcher? I remember seeing it a few days ago, but have not heard anything since.
I didn't get to respond to Aaron's tidbit on trading Soto 2 years removed from ROY and still in his prime. I agree whole heartedly that now is the time to trade him and get maximum value. We have not done that in ages. Hendry doesn't trade guys until they have worn out their welcome, or are struggling so give them a chance with a fresh start. I believe that if Hendry actually trades Soto, and gets a good value that will affect the future years of this club - he will in fact save face with a smart move. Am I wrong?
Hendry has a chance to make some amends for his past blunders and give himself a fresh start in the Ricketts era. In my opinion, the only untouchables in the organization are MARMOL (I hope Phil Rogers sees this), Guzman, Castro, Cashner, and Jackson. That's our future. Now some others could reach that potential, like Flaherty, Castillo, Clevenger, Carpenter, etc. The rest if they bring us value back, do it - Lee, Ramirez, Zambrano, Soto, etc. Yes, I know they have no trade clauses - but if Boston comes calling for Derrick Lee next year and we are out of it - I will take a Bowden and then some in a heartbeat - and tell Mr Lee go win another ring.
If Hendry proves he has the cajones to do it and trade Soto to bring back a Granderson/Crawford/Upton/or Sizemore - I think it might be time to give him a little bit of good credit for a change.
Neil...and anyone else that might know the answer.
To me, It appears that the economic challenges we all face is finally impacting baseball...Detroit...in the heart of the downtrodden automobile industry apparently has to slash payroll.
Notably, Texas is in trouble and several other teams also are paring down.
So, that has had me wondering about Babe Ruth and Charlie Finley and the Mark Teahan trade between KC and the White Sox.
If you recall the Teahan trade last week was widely reported...and then both partieds went silent and would not confirm or deny the trade. That's because a sum of money was exchanged
over a million and less than 2 mil.
I believe the genesis that a trade must be approved if a large sum of cash is exchanged originasted bafk in the 70's when Oakland A's owner Charles O. Finley wanted to sell his stars straight out for cash.
Charlie cited the precedent set by the Yankees and Red Sox when Babe Ruth was sold to the Yankees for cash to help the financially strapped Red Sox team...at the time.
I brought this up this summer...and can't rememember the answer...but it does seem an apropo thought just now.
What is the actual rule regarding cash transactions in trades?
It seems to me a rich club...like the Yankees could say to a struggling team:
"Look we'll give you $10 million cash...and pick up the salary of xyz player...to make it look like a trade
we'll shoot you a couple of mediocre
players".
Think of Texas and how they had to borrow $50 million from mlb last season
just to sign their prospects and keep payroll going. And then Selig would not approve them paying over recommended
slot to sign their first round pick...and so lost him.
So while we are pondering Granderson...trades/cash etc....
Does anyone know what are the exact guidlines or rules are covering this?
I'm sure it would be considered an "Integrity of the Game Clause" or somesuch.
Thoughts or answers?
The rule is that any trade that exchangesd cash over one million dollars must be approved by the commissioner.
This commish must also approve trades of a player on the disabled list.
Also, the commish has the power to reject any trade that is not in the best intersts of baseball.
Suzy, Joe is right on. MLB front offices must approve any deals/trades that includes more than a million dollars. That is the reason Jacque Jones finished out the 2007 season with the Cubs ... to bring up another recent example.
Joe S. and Neil...thanks...the starting point is the rules...I wonder what guidelines Selig uses to apply them...
no one can answer that but him.
Thanks again.
First before saying anything else....let me say if ANY team is willing to take Miles and Heilman in a trade then make that trade immediately I don't care who it's for.
Granderson is definitely NOT worth draining or minor league system for and NOT worth some of potential up and comers such as Castro and Vitters. Buster Olney is absolutely right when he says that the lefty-righty splits will assure that. Granderson is horrible against lefties. HORRIBLE. We would definitely need to bring Reed Johnson back if we acquire Granderson.
If the Tigers would take a package such as Fox, Hoffpuair and Marshall that could pull it off. Very cheap players in return for the Tigers and all three are Major Leaguers. I wouldnt mind that trade at all....as long as we bring in Reed Johnson to cover the southpaws.
There is another problem with Granderson and that is how his contract is structured. In 2008 his salary was 1 Million. Last year it was 3.5 Million. This year it is 5.5 Million. (That's pushing it for a platoon player) Next year it is 8.25 Million (Not Acceptable for a platoon player) and the final year-2012- it is 10 Million which is nuts for a platoon player. He has a 13-15 Million Club Option for 2013. So I don't like how the contract is structured and I certainly don't like that we would have to platoon our CF and RF positions, because we know Kosuke cannot hit lefties that well either.
Joe S
Bringing back Reed Johnson presents a couple of problems.
1. He has some health issues now. Bad back isn't something thats going to get better at his age.
2. Even if you do bring back a Reed Johnson, there is only one of him. We have a platoon in right field as well with Fukudome. He cant hit lefties either. Let's say Johnson goes on the DL for a month. Then what? Assuming Fox is still there - he plays right field to face lefties. Play Aaron Miles in center? haha.
Is Snyder going to make the roster? He would be a good platoon option for right field.
I've stated before that we don't face that many lefties in our league. Not too big of an issue for acquiring Granderson. So, when people talk about him being a platoon player - he is still going to play 90 percent of the time in the NL. I would be willing to make a wager that if the Cubs acquire Granderson - those damn birds down the road will make a counter move and go after a Bedard or Washburn knowing this.
Woody ... good points on Reed Johnson, one quick note, Sam Fuld hit lefties rather well last year with the Cubs and I-Cubs.
As for Snyder, he is a lefty.
http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l132&t=p_pbp&pid=430957
Snyder strikes out a lot but is an outfielder and would give the Cubs more versatility than Micah Hoffpauir. I saw him in spring training last year. He has a very good arm and is not another converted infielder trying to play outfield.
Sean Marshall, Jake Fox, Cashner, Jae Kuk Ryu, Fontenot/prospect FOR Granderson
Should be enough (if not, i could be OK with givin up Vitters but not Castro or Marmol)
Then trade Bradley for Millwood and sign Billy Wagner AND either Orlando Hudson or Cabrera to a one year deal
That team turns around into one of the MLB's best reallllll quick
LINEUP-
Orlando Hudson/Cabrera
Ryan Theriot
Derrek Lee
Aramis Ramirez
Curtis Granderson
Alfonso Soriano
Geovany Soto
Kosuke Fukudome
BENCH-
Koyie Hill
Andres Blanco
Micah Hoffpauir
Jeff Baker
Reef Johnson/Sam Fuld
Fontenot/Miles/Whoever
ROTATION-
Zambrano
Lilly
Dempster
Millwood
Wells
BULLPEN-
CL-Marmol
SU- Wagner
SU- Guzman
MR- Grabow
MR- Caridad
LR- Berg/Gorzelanny
SICK ROSTER...2010 NL CENTRAL CHAMPS...
Heres another pointless statement by Phil Rogers:
http://twitter.com/ChiTribRogers/status/5710567468
A few thoughts....
* Curtis Granderson would be a very good pick up for a reasonable trade. A trade that would not include Vitters, Cashman or Castro.
* I am all for a trade of Mental Bradley going to NYM for Luis Castillo, ATL for Derek Lowe.
* I truly hope that we don't go into next year with Theriot at SS and Jeff Baker/Aaron Miles/Mike Fontenot at 2B.
The logic of what to trade for granderson is really odd to me. The reason detroit is looking to deal him is restock their farm system because of the Cabrera/Dontrelle trade. So why would we do the same thing and deal Castro, etc..
I am not a scout and have never seen most of our younger players play. I wouldn't deal Castro, as he is projecting as a sure major leaguer at SS.
Now Vitters is highly touted, but we have Ramirez at 3rd, vitters is at least 2 years away (2012), and is RH opposed to LH, and is still a work in progress on defense.
Everything i have read is Cashner and Jackson have really good stuff and project as ML's.
Now Chris Carpenter has had an history of injuries in his college career.
And I would think Jake Fox, Randy Wells, Ryan Theriot, Sean Marshall, Angel Guzman would be young ML ready trade bait.
I dont know how much higher Randy Wells stock will be than now. How good is he? He's a 27 year old rookie that is not overpowering. He throws strikes and has a great sinker. I would deal him if could get Granderson.
What about Jeff Samardjiza? Soto?
Lets not deal our best prospects for a guy that cant hit lefties. Brian Hawpe couldnt hit lefties 3 years ago and now his splits are a lot better. Who knows what Rudy can do with him?
Alright, I'm off the fence re Granderson.
Bruce Levine just said he didn't know if there is a match...because he feels Hendry would not include Castro or Cashner.
If we can do it without screwing over our minor league system...fine...if not...move on.
The only way I consider moving one of our top prospects is for other TOP
prospects...like EY Jr....and then it has to be carefully considered.
We have 2 excellent ss prospects...Castro
and Lee. Imagine them in a few years...
one at ss and the other at 2nd.
Excellent defense up the middle is the first prerequisite for a championship...
I'm not giving years of that up for a
few years of homers.
Suzy,
The more I think about it, the more I am on the fence also. I actually think I would prefer we go after Brandon Phillips. Brandon Phillips is a gold glove second baseman has some speed and pop. If we are going to go get a center fielder, I would prefer it to be Sizemore or Upton/Crawford. I believe we could still pull one of them for pretty much the same deal as Granderson.
With Tampa we could pull sort of a megadeal. How about we get Crawford/Upton, Navarro, Sonnanstine, and Burrell for Soto, Bradley, Fox, and couple of mid level prospects?? We then try to flip Burrell and Navarro to say San Fran or somebody.
I would love to see Brandon Phillips in a Cubs uniform. He is in his prime now, provides that gold glove defense, speed and power. What do we think it might take to get him??
Woody ... sorry to bring this up, but Brandon Phillips is not going anywhere.
Walt Jocketty was on XM yesterday (Friday) and said he is not shopping the names floated at the GM meetings. When asked about Phillips, he said 'no'.
Take this for what it is worth, but I heard him ... this is not 'second-hand' info.
Woody 34:
Theres nothing not to like about Brandon Phillps.
Great defense/20hrs/25 sb...(caught nine times) 98 RBI's...he walks (44) and not to many KO's.
He'll be 29 in late June....Basically he's an older version of EY Jr.
With age comes expense. In 2010 his contract calls for $6.75 mil./2011- $11mil/ 2012 Club option at $12 mil or
1 mil buyout.
Hendry dealing with Walt Jockity worries
me. While there has been no bad history
beteen the Reds and Cubs re deals...but we are talking long term rivals in the land where Dusty chews on toothpicks.
The Reds would ask more of us then they
would someone else. I believe they have a kid in the minors they think is almost ready tp take Phillips place...so someone to cover Phillips is not necessary...unless they want a back-up.
Woody...let me do some more research on the Reds needs before I answer what I think it would take.
Tampa is not going to let go of Crawford or Upton until maybe the trade deadline...or if they get off to a bad start.
A Tampa blog I read suggested they throw in Sonnanstine to make up the difference
in money...we don't want to pick-up.
Tampa basically doesn't want to pay for the second year of Bradley's contract.
I hope there is a better deal for him somewhere else...Burrell won't be easy to move either.
I'll get back to you...But I do like Phillips.
Ok,,,Woody...Neil beat me to it...while I was typing...can the Phillips idea.
some Granderson thoughts:
If the hendry gives up any top prospects (vitters, castro) for this guy, he's an idiot. I'm not crazy about adding another high strikeout, platoon player. Don't we have enough of those ? Someone earlier made the point about there are very few LH starters in NL, so the fact that Granderson can't hit lefties is not that big a deal. Well, that's misleading. What about late in the game in a close ballgame and the other team brings in a tough lefty ? Those are key situtions, and Granderson will be absolutely worthless in those spots. We already have that problem with Fuk. I say no to the whole Granderson sweepstakes, unless you can get him for cheap. And I would defintely re-sign Reed Johnson. If we can sign guys for 10-15-18M and not blink an eye, I think we can sign Reed for 3M. That's not a huge risk.
Also, a comment on Soto. Some have suggested that cubs trade him now. That makes absolutely ZERO sense to me. Why would you trade a guy who's value is at it lowest right now ? When you look at how good he was in 08 and how bad he was in 2009, you can bet the ranch he will improve on last year. Plus, don't discount the motivation factor, now that he knows his career as a starter is on the line. I believe he'll work his butt off this winter. And last question, we don't have a catcher from farm ready to step in, so people are ok with Koyie Hill as the starter ? Come on. He's a nice backup, but a starter? Please.
I know we might overvalue prospects, but I wouldn't trade a SS prospect AND Josh Vitters & I certainly wouldn't include Marmol in ANY deal.
If this guy can't hit lefties, then at best, one of the SS prospects and 2 veterans in the Heilman, Fontenot, Miles range. Bradley has to go and I wouldn't be overpaying for Byrd if they are considering making a play for Granderson.
There is a reason why Detroit has put him up on the trading block. Don't overpay for this guy(or any Outfielder), Cubs!!! Hendry has been overpaying for Outfielders since he has got here Jacque Jones, Alfonso Soriano, Kosuke Fukodome, Milton Bradley, etc. etc.
Hendry does better with bargains such as Jim Edmonds & Reed Johnson. Ricketts should order Hendry to close the pocketbook when he starts salivating over these available outfielders.
My thoughts so far are definately go get Granderson. He plays great in center and hits right handed pitching both things we badly need. obviously we can't afford to give up any of our top 5 or so prospects: castro and vitters appear to be can't miss prospects so they are untouchables. besides those two I'm ok with giving up 1 top prospect to get granderson as it takes talent to get talent. I'm not ready to give up on Soto just yet and I think adding granderson pushes Soto back in the lineup where there is less pressure on him to produce. If Fox is on the team he can play RF with Granderson/Fukudome in CF. A 5th OF that can hit lefties. would also be needed maybe try out Rocco Baldelli or go back to Reed. Trading Bradley to acquire another starter such as Lowe,Millwood or whoever the best pitcher that can be traded should be considered. Halladay is a pipe dream, but would be worth trading ANY prospect for. Also sign Chone Figgins to play 2nd. he could really help our lineup and provide depth at almost every position. And the last thing I would like to see is to bring Harden and make him a reliever ala Kerry Wood. closer makes sense for him and his arm issues and with Marmol back in his setup role we have a lights out bullpen. While Harden won't happen the other changes could and if they do we could be back to being the paper champs of the central. also would rather have carl crawford and move him to CF than Granderson. He plays gold glove quality LF so a move to CF should be doable and he has great bat control. Talk of BJ Upton scares me. He strikes out as much or more than Granderson or Soriano.also just one more righthanded bat in the lineup. For those who remember his postseason '08 forget his last 2 regular seasons. Very Soriano like just younger and cheaper, for now.
We'd be completely nuts to include Marmol and Vitters and/or Castro in a deal. HOW MANY TYIMES HAVE WE DONE SOMETHING LIKE THIS AND IT COMPLETELY BUSTS AT OUR END? HUH?
The Cubs have 2 options, buy their way to a world series or find those missing pieces that make a championship team without spending much example, FLorida Marlins. All I ever hear every year is about one stud prospect we have. If i were in Jim Hendry's position, the first order of business would be to fire my a**. And take Bradley with since he is the only one that likes him. Second I would bring up that star shortsop, move theriot over to 2nd base when he is ready. Third I would only trade for Granderson if they accept a trade for Fontenot, Marshall, Mica H., and Heiliman any combinations of those players. Then I would contact the White Sox and do a Carlos Zambrano for Peavy. Resign Harden on a performance based contract.take a chance at Vladimer Guerrero with him at right for the right price. Sign Mark derosa to again fill any voids our lineup may have.
Projected Lineup
Granderson/ Fukudome cf
Theriot SS
Lee 1b
Ramierez 3b
Guerrero Rf
Soriano lf
Derosa 2b
Soto / Hill c
Rotation
Peavy
Lilly
Dempster
Harden/ Jeff Samar.
Wells
I just read that the Marlins are shopping Dan Ugla. Does anyone think there is a trade scenario that could put him at 2B in a Cubs uniform? Or is his price tag way too high?
We do not want Uggla, because he makes more errors at second than any other player in the league. Only Luis Castillo has a lower UZR rating in the majors. We need to build a defensive middle. Now, Brandon Phillips would be cheaper I believe coming from the Reds looking to dump payroll, while Florida holds their players to a higher value than most teams - thats why they get top prospects in return.
I disagree....I would take Uggla. His career field percentage is .981 The great Ryne Sandberg finished his career at .989 So we are talking the difference of .008 between the two and yet several people on here have talked about how horrible Uggla is on defense.
How many errors would be eliminated by having Gold Glove first baseman Derrek Lee on his side?
He's been an all star for two of his 4 years in the majors.
Plus, the guy is good for about 35 doubles 30 homeruns and 95 RBI's. I'll take that production out of 2B anyday. He walks a ton as well. His only downfall is all his strikeouts which hopefully the new hitting coach could work on.
I think he would fill the hole nicely.
In the final analysis the teams that do well in the long run do a better job in evaluating and developing their own talent and being patient and capitalizing on the opportunies when the time and circumstances are right. Very few teams consistently get more back in trades and free agency than what they give. Then there is Hendry. If I were Ricketts I would not allow any internal prospect with half a chance for success on the parent club to be dealt and take only the deals that are no brainers while focusing on getting rid of the broken parts and bad contracts and drafting trading for and building the talent pool within. Granderson is a fine player but is not going to put the Cubs over the top and the Cubs farm is not deep enough to be giving up solid prospects. If Detroit wants to dump him fine but it is no time to be bargaining with the future of the club.
jw...very well said. I have to agree...but let's see what happens.
You are all idiots. Granderson is an elite CF playing in one of the toughest outfields in baseball. He's arguably the best CF playing in the game today. His numbers are comparable or in some cases better than Grady Sizemore's. Hitting lefties is a problem for him, but he is not a platoon player. He's an all-star CF. Keith Law is an idiot. Stop regurgitating what that hack says. Granderson would be a stud in Wrigley playing CF after moving from Comerica. The NL is more of a fastball league, and Granderson would put up monster numbers for the Cubs. He is a pure fastball hitter.
It would take a lot to get him. All these talks of unloading a handful of scrubs for Granderson is ridiculous. Clearly these people don't understand the game of baseball. To get granderson you would at least have to include Castro, Vitters, and a top-tier pitcher. Or Castro and Marmol. An athlete like Granderson doesn't come cheap, and if you don't like that deal, oh well, the tigers don't have to deal him.
You are all idiots. Granderson is an elite CF playing in one of the toughest outfields in baseball. He's arguably the best CF playing in the game today. His numbers are comparable or in some cases better than Grady Sizemore's. Hitting lefties is a problem for him, but he is not a platoon player. He's an all-star CF. Keith Law is an idiot. Stop regurgitating what that hack says. Granderson would be a stud in Wrigley playing CF after moving from Comerica. The NL is more of a fastball league, and Granderson would put up monster numbers for the Cubs. He is a pure fastball hitter.
It would take a lot to get him. All these talks of unloading a handful of scrubs for Granderson is ridiculous. Clearly these people don't understand the game of baseball. To get granderson you would at least have to include Castro, Vitters, and a top-tier pitcher. Or Castro and Marmol. An athlete like Granderson doesn't come cheap, and if you don't like that deal, oh well, the tigers don't have to deal him.
How many prospects, most of whom seemed to have been named Patterson, have the Cubs stuck with in the past decade or so, only to have them fail miserably in the long run? And if Granderson can only hit righties, how many center fielders do the Cubs have now who can hit anybody?
Do it, Jim Hendry, no matter how many prospects it takes. And if one or two of them works out, c'est la vie. The worst that can happen is you'll have a center fielder playing center, and one who can at least hit righties!