Just read on the Cubs site, we came to terms with Bako.

Hill didn't hit a slump last year - he was demoted because his control completely abandoned him at times... and his stats in the minors against (theoretically) inferior competition bear that out. He apparently caught whatever disease Wholers and Ankiel and others have contracted through the years.

I agree - he has the potential to be great if he pulls it back together - but he didn't do it in the low minors... and he also didn't do it in winter ball. He's out of options. Hence his chance to make the roster out of the spring was practically nil and he's out of options.

So - he got traded so that we got something instead of nothing when we inevitably had to designate him for assignment and hove someone else snatch him off of waivers for free.

I don't understand the issue here (sigh)

If they were going to trade Hill for PTBNL, they should have at least brought him to spring training to see if he had anything. I doubt he could actually lower his stock.

The majors, to a point, is the only way to truly devolpe someone further because they play against the best of the best day in and day out. You can have someone tear up the minor league system for years but the only way to gage if they are any good is to give them a go against major leaguers. Not everyone is going to be a Puljos or an A-Rod so what do you say is a chance? How many AB's or IP before you decide if someone is going to be a quality major leaguer or a flop?

Hill had that shot in 2007 and he dominated at times. He was 11-8 pitching 195 innings striking out 183 with a 3.92 ERA which is pretty darn good.

My point, in my previous post, was that Lou should have given him more than 5 starts especially that early in the year. Lilly was by far worse than Hill yet Lou stayed with him the entire year. I would have liked Hill to have at least 2 or 3 more starts and if he was still struggling then send him down. Thats just my opinion.

My point with Pie is he never really was given a chance to suceed last year. I don't know how people can say that he did, they signed Johnson right before the seaons started and then signed Edmonds not to long after that. If people want to say his chance was in 2007 that's fine but my point was he didn't have a chance last year and should have been traded before the season began when he had more trade value.

Maybe I'm just frustrated because all of our "top prospects" continue to fail and I had hope that these two would be different. Oh well lets just hope Theriot, Soto, Marmol and Shark don't have slumps this year.

Yeah, it's frustrating. I don't know if you can still find it but there's an old article (i think from the Times) about how the Cubs picked up Pie as a 14-year old in the DR. He was shining shoes across the street from a tryout. So I certainly am still pulling for him big time. There's so much we don't know that goes on behind the scenes. I thought it was interesting, despite his struggles early last year, that Soriano really benefited from having Pie in the line-up. For some reason his average was higher with Pie starting. They're from the same town and it seemed like Soriano sort of fed off teaching Pie the ropes.

Let me get this straight:

McPhail was a horrible judge of talent that was run out of the city (hence giving him the name McFail) but has become a genius in Baltimore for taking all the Cubs leftovers (Patterson, Pie, Hill)? Hill has become a scrub that I never thought was that good. It’s not like he was a young phenom that came into the league young and succeeded. He had a decent season that gave hitters the time to adjust and find his weakness.

Lou doesn’t like playing young players? How about giving Theriot the job at shortstop when he was a young player and hadn’t played the position since college? How about giving Soto the starting job over Kendall in the 2007 playoffs and beyond? How about having Marmol as his set-up man, and having the confidence in him to get rid of a veteran closer? How about playing the Shark last season, Guzman whenever he is healthy, Fontenot whenever he can (even letting DeRosa go to possibly get more ABs). It seems to me like he plays the people who perform. THE MAJORS SHOULDN’T BE THE PLACE TO DEVELOP, that’s why there are different levels of the minor leagues. Either you have it, or you don’t. Theriot, Soto, Marmol have it and they get their playing time.

(insert sound of applause here)

word

After reviewing some great commentary, three thoughts:

First, if Hill and Pie were key to the Roberts trade last year it speaks a ton about the value of trading prospects when their "projected" value is high for proven MLB talent.

Second, as for the reality of today, Hill, Pie and Cedano all had their chances and were found wanting.

Coaches find deficiencies and work with players to adjust their play to correct those deficiencies. If players can't adjust and become reasonably complete players they ultimately become a liability, the caliber of play is too high. Teams with talent deficits can afford guys with a hole in their skill set (e.g., Hill, Pie and Cedano) – contenders can not.

The Cubs tried everything with Pie and Hill. If they had been traded last year in a package for Brian Roberts, some fans would be crying that we traded away our top prospects and depleted our farm system. If you want to blame anyone for the lameness of these two trades to the Orioles, blame Pie and Hill for not meeting the potential we all thought they had. It's really unfortunate we didn't get something better for them last year, but we tried to stick with them, a policy many fans think the Cubs don't do enough with their homegrown talent, and neither one had thus far panned out. That's baseball...

How can you say that they really stuck with either Pie or Hill last year? Hill pitched in only 5 games and never gave up more than 3 runs in any of those games. He had a 4.12 ERA which isn't that bad. Yes he had walk issues but he kept the Cubs in the game pitching 5 innings 2xs and pitching 6 innings once. Lou lost his cool with him and soon after that he got demoted and all confidence was gone.

Pie had 83 AB last year and they signed Johnson right after spring training to play center field and a month later they signed Edmonds so Pie never really was given a chance.

In my opinion I don't think Pie was ever going to get a real chance with Lou based on his preference for veterans, so he should have been traded before last year started. As far as Hill is concerned who knows what really is going on with the guy but he had 2 good years as a starting pitcher in the Majors and I wish he would have gotten another chance this year with the Cubs. I think the O's got a steal with him.

Have you seen Hill's winter ball stats? Can you really blame Lou for ruining this kid? Ultimately Rich Hill is responsible for himself, and his feelings need to be a little tougher if you're going to blame Lou Pinella for his inability to throw strikes. And I should say I really like Hill. Big 12-to-6 curve, lots of arm action, develops velocity with his body. But it doesn't seem to be there anymore.

Pie has a lot of trouble hitting left-handed pitching in the majors. They tried repeatedly at EVERY level to work on shortening his swing and help him with his base-stealing. It seems like every other day we read that they were sending some special instructor down to help him out. Everyone complains he didn't get enough major league ABs, but it's not like he tore up AAA last year like he did in '07. If they keep him as a bench player, fine with me. But I'm not going to rip the organization for trading him.

I never said Lou ruined him. He did lose his patience with him and sent him down to the minors after only 5 games. Lilly those same 5 games had an ERA of 7.30 and gave up 4 or more ER in all but one of those games including giving up 5 runs 3 times in a row. Lilly walked 11 during those games and gave up 20 ER while Hill walked 18 and gave up only 9 ER. So you tell me why didn't Lou demote Lilly as well, he was by far the worst of the two during that stretch.

I'm not saying that Lou didn't like Hill but when it comes to young players his solution is to send them down instead of letting them try and work it out. Based on Hill's performance the year before he should have been given the benefit of the doubt and a chance to improve like Lilly did. Lilly settled down, turned his season around and had a very solid year.

As far as what has happened to Hill since the demotion, he doesn't have anyone but himself to blame. For whatever reason the light hasn't came back on and he is still struggling. I just would have liked a chance for him to compete in spring training.

Yeah lou hates the young kids thats why Theriot and Fontenot always get PT. The point is, if you produce for Lou you get PT, Pie did not. It is Pies fault alone he didnt get more at bats.

I think even a casual observer of Hill's performances could see that he did not have the mental make up to be a MLB pitcher. He is never coming back with any long term success, and to get a bag a balls instead of the nothing that would have come out of his imminent release, is pulling a fast one on McFail. Oh, and because I would want somebody to let me know if I got it wrong, Matt H.,it's rosin, not rasin bag.

I would have rather Hill come to spring training and fail rather than trade him for a PTBNL. Most PTBNL almost always end up being career minor leaguers so it's like your getting nothing for him anyway. What happens if Hill comes to spring training and regains his form from 2007? I hope he does that in Baltimore because the guy can pitch in the majors. Screwing with a pitchers mechanics is a terrible idea, especially when they have had success. The biggest problem he had was a lack of confidence from Lou and Rothschild which totally messed with his head and if a pitcher starts second guessing himself or looking over his shoulder then it's done.

This is just another example of a GM not trading prospects when they are at an all time high and waiting until their value is at an all time low. Cedeno and Pie plus Hill could have gotten us Roberts last year but Hendry didn't pull the trigger. They play the entire year values go down for all players, comments made to the media about this being their final chance, really hurts their status around the league. It's a hard decision by any GM to gage who is going to pan out and who is going to fizzle but it seems like Cubs GM's get it wrong more times than not and we end up trading guys for less value then they would have received the year before.

On a side note I heard that the Mariners were interested in Hill. I just hope that Hendry at least tried to offer Cedeno and Hill for Hielman before trading Olson.

I still remember the game when Hill totally dominated the Braves 2 seasons ago, and the Braves announcers were so impressed with him.

Rather than trade him, how about Rotschild investing a lot of personal time with him in the off-season to get him back on track.

Just another example of the lack of patience at the coaching level. Get in Lou's doghouse, and you're gone. I hope I'm wrong, but I see this organization going in the wrong direction, led by a ego-maniac as manager. This team has huge health risks all over the field, and no significant farm system to speak of. But hey, let's keep giving away players that Lou doesn't like anymore.

It's easy to say we should have received more for Hill ... but the bottom line is no team was willing to deal anything of value for him. A PTBNL sure beats releasing Hill in March when he doesnt make the Cubs.

I just feel like we could have gotten more for Hill, but apparently (and hopefully!!) this was the best deal...gotta trust JH, he knows a lot more than any of us...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do PTBNL work the same way in football? The better Hill does this year means we get a better player?

If this actually official now, I think it really sucks...I liked Hill, and feel he will turn it around in a fresh environment...But yeah, what irks me the most is that the O's got both Pie and Hill from us, and still no Brian Roberts on the North Side...I do like the Heilman deal, though.

That is a bummer. Hey Larry, you got that money you owe me?

I can really use it. Seriously.

Send me an email.

Thanks

Phil

I don't understand the PTBNL angst. It's January and there's a month and a half before spring training. Let's at least see who the player might be. Good lord people.

The general way the PTBNL works is that one team trades a player and then gets the option of several players to choose from and a set time frame in which to make that choice. There's no hurry - again - January.

Unless you know the list - you cannot bash this deal. Period. (sigh)

Plus - Hill got demoted to AAA - then A - then Rookie ball last year. His value had nothing to do with Pinella and the doghouse - it had to do with performance. He got walk-itis and couldn't find a cure.

Hill's wind-up was way to big and uncontrolled and his head almost touched the ground as he reared back. He was fortunate to have one good year. When even the slowest runners discovered they could run on him and he could not pitch from the stretch that threw him over the edge. The PTBNL may be conditional on whether Hill makes the roster...don't count on even a "rasin bag" though. This is purely a dump to clear roster space.

Hendry hasn't had much success in selling high and McPhail and the Orioles are bottem feeding in the bargain bin.

Rothschild & Piniella were the least of Hill's problems. At the first sign of trouble he became a timid, frightened little girl on the mound. He was a great front runner but caved under pressure. I don't blame Lou for losing patience with a player who won't fight his way through trouble.

WOW!?!?!?!

McFail completely duped JH and the Cubs this offseason. They got both Pie and Hill and didn't have to trade Roberts.

Forget last year, Hill is a lefty that has shown the ability to pitch well at the major league level. Receiving a PTBNL (or a rasin bag) is a COMPLETE emberassment.

Come on guys... good move? It's time to hold these overpaid idiots accountable. I can't believe some of you are praising this move.

UNBELIEVABLE!?!?!

You would have kept him on the roster all season long?

Not to sound condescending, but what do you do with a guy who is out of options and may fail come the start of the season?

What do you do???

Are you kidding..?

YOU TRADE HIM TO SOMEONE WHO VALUES HIM!!! NOT A TEAM THAT IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU AND OFFERING A PTBNL!!!

HE is a 28 year old lefty that is a year removed from winning double digit games (11), posting a sub 4 era (3.92), and striking out 183 mlb hitters. The guy showed crazy strike out potential in the minors.

What do you do???

haha... unbelievable.

The problem with that, is with him being out of options and following a year like last year he has no value. Teams are not willing to trade top prospects for a guy they could just as easily pick up off waivers if they wait till the season starts. Orioles did value him and thats why Cubs got the PTBNL out of it. His value was just squat that is what the problem was. I dont praise this trade as it should have happened last year for Roberts, but it didnt and getting something for him is better then getting nothing. Who knows that PTBNL could end up being a stud. He could be that 35th rounder that turned into Pujols who knows.

BTW; Classic example of why prospects should be traded for prooven guys that are worthy. In other words we love prospects, dearly but if a guy like Vitters=Peavy...I say do it.

Bingo.

Especially until the Cubs prove they can develop minor leaguers.

poor Hill...no pressure watsoever, there, in the AL East!!!

Haha, no problem Matt. Good points and I enjoy input on opinions! I hear you, but I just thought we could have gotton more for him.

Sorry. The comment above actually wasnt a reply. Sorry Mark:

Look everyone.

This is actually a great deal for the Cubs. Rich is out of options and WOULD NOT have made the Cubs out of spring training.

We then would have got NOTHING for him at that point. The fact we'll get a rasin bag at the minimum is great for Jimmy H.

we sure deal with Baltimore alot....

Hill's beyond damaged goods. Rothschild screwed with his mechanics, he had a bad game, and Lou didn't take it easy on him. Between not fixing something that wasn't broke and giving him no confidence, his mentality was shot. His only hope was to go to another team and hope they'll change his mechanics back, and let him get back into a grove with no pressure.

Remember Rick Kranitz is the pitching coach in Baltimore. The one who tutored him originally before putting up his stellar 2007 season. Reuniting Hill with Kranitz could pay huge dividends for Baltimore.

I think you might be right about his mechanics. I bought for a while what everyone was saying about Hill, that maybe he is a head case. That may be partially true. But it looks like his mechanics to me.

Here is a very interesting article talking about Hill's mechanics.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2009/01/rich-hill-trade-rumors-baltimore-orioles/

wow you would think we could get somebody decent

I'm sorry but I have never understood the Player To Be Named Later thing. Do the Cubs just get to pick from a list of guys that the Orioles approved or what?

Here's how I understand it...the two teams agree upon a list of players before the trade is made. The club then has x number of days to complete the deal.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!! Fine, trade Hill, but this is just giving him away for nothing. What the hell is going on? We just traded all our, well they used to be our TOP PROSPECTS,

(Pie,Sedeno,Hill)which every team wanted at one point and we got nothing as far as i'm concerned. It's not like these guys have huge contacts and we needed to shed some $. Now, no Roberts and I doubt we'll get Peavy, becuase if we get Peavy, we'll be unbeatable. I don't like it and I hope to God I'm wrong!

Look everyone.

This is actually a great deal for the Cubs. Rich is out of options and WOULD NOT have made the Cubs out of spring training.

We then would have got NOTHING for him at that point. The fact we'll get a rasin bag at the minimum is great for Jimmy H.

why......????