Anybody know if the Cards would even dare send Rick Ankiel to the Cubs for pitching help???

Just a thought...

hmmmmmmm...

"Now, I'm not saying Rapada, Cherry, etc. should be on the team right now, but I'm merely stating that these guys were sent up and down several times after many landed in the Piniella's doghouse"

I know it was a long post, so you probably missed the final paragraph, but that's where I summed it all up. I wasn't saying that Eyre, Fukudome, etc. didn't deserve to be in Piniella's doghouse, or any manager's doghouse for that matter....I was listing everyone rumored to be in his doghouse, so how can that be flawed?!?

Secondly, with regard to playing time, Eric Patterson had 13 games and 38 AB's last year to prove himself IN A CUBS UNIFORM. The year before, he had 7 games and 8 AB's. Yup, I guess 20 games and 46 AB's really defines you doesn't it?!? Are you kidding me Gary J.?!?!

Fact is, after they shipped Pie off to AAA, they kept bringing up guys like Patterson, Murton, and Hoffpauir between AAA and the big club. They'd get infrequent playing time, and all of a sudden be called upon to pinch hit in a clutch situation, and when they'd fail, Piniella would send them to the bench, or option them back to AAA. How is that fair? Point is, it's not just Piniella, it's how the Cubs have ALWAYS treated their young players.

After Theriot struggled in full-time duty in 2007, everyone was calling for his head, and the Cubs were actively pursuing a replacement (and still are, even after his break-out season). Who knows what position we'd be in if we still had Kendall, and Soto was benched during that streak of 7-8 consecutive K's his year. Don't believe me? There's no way in hell that he wouldn't have been benched if we had someone other than Hank White as a back-up. Theriot was given a shot this year by default, because everything else fell through, and Cedeno wasn't an option. Fontenot didn't struggle that badly, and really hasn't been in a full-time role to struggle anyhow.

Fukudome was allowed to self-destruct before our eyes, because we had no other option out there. Piniella needed Johnson off the bench to spell Edmonds late in the game and after Hoffpauir's error in RF in the Tampa series, Piniella pretty much relegated him to pinch hit duty, which also wasn't fair.

Anyway, that's all I have...Read Brian's article today, and you'll see more of the frustration with Piniella's "doghouse"

Aaron -

I'm going to call you out for your logic here on two things....

You can't bash Lou for having Fukudome in his doghouse and then call him an idiot for playing him instead of Johnson :-)

Side note... I actually don't think Hoff is in his doghouse - he seems pretty high on the kid - he's just got Lee at first and it's a matter of getting him some playing time. But he didn't hesitate to use him in key spots down the stretch.

As for Patterson... I think he's actually got more talent than his brother - but when a guy hits under .200 in 130 ABs, you've got to pull the plug sometime. Especially with the other homegrown youngster in Fontenot hitting 120 points higher.

So that's the second logic flaw... you can't fault Lou for not playing one of the guys on your mid-20s list when he's sitting him in favor of another guy on the list.

I actually agree with you on the premise of build a team of vets and sprinkle in some youngsters and let them grow - I truly do. And I also think that team's fifth starter should be a player from the minors that you want to give a shot and see if you can't catch lightning....

...seems to be a formula that works a lot of the time for a lot of teams....

...but for all that - the Cubs have had success anyway and I like that. Not sure how to personally handle it after all those years of despair - but I'll take it :-)

Gary J,

I must agree with Joe here...it really shot his confidence. Heck, if we're going to use that logic of sending a guy out immediately after he struggles, then why wouldn't they trade Lilly immediately, or demote Marmol in July when he was struggling, etc.

I don't understand it. If they had done the same thing with Zambrano, as he struggled with his first stint at the MLB level, then we wouldn't have our ace. Similarly, Marmol from last year...we wouldn't have our future closer now. Same thing happened with Corey Patterson, Pie, etc. We just don't know how to handle young guys that struggle at the MLB level. I honestly think it's a combination of having 3 intolerant managers of young players: Baylor, then Baker, and now Piniella. This is precisely why Girardi would've been the smarter choice long-term for the organization, because he knows how to teach.

So far, we know the following guys were/are in Piniella's doghouse:

Murton

Pie

Hoffpauir

Cedeno

Hill

Marquis

Fukudome

Wuertz

Eyre

Cotts

Wood

Gaudin

*that's about half of our opening day 2008 roster right there. Murton, Eyre, and Wood are no longer with the organization. Pie, Hill, Marquis, Cedeno, and Wuertz appear on their way out, so that leaves just Cotts, Hoffpauir, Gaudin, and Fukudome.

....and even so, it appears Fukudome will be nothing more than a platoon, and Hoffpauir will be a bench player.

It appears that he usually gets his way. It's his way or the high way, and that's not what we need. His idiotic move of not playing Reed Johnson when Fukudome couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in the playoffs likely hindered our chances of even making it competitive. Similarly, his continual faith in Howry almost cost us the division with his misuse during the season. I don't get why he favors some underperforming veterans, while he seems to be okay with others. All I really ask for is consistency.

It's almost like when your parents would scold you as a kid, then let your older sibling, or in my case, the baby of the family, get away with everything. It made you less respectful of them, because they weren't consistent. If you're going to scold one, you better be prepared to scold another for the same thing if you catch them. Piniella doesn't seem to do that, but Hendry is married to him, just as he is to Rothschild. He went with "experience and battled veteran" over youthful exuberance with Girardi. What he failed to realize was that Piniella had no patience with youth in Tampa, which is precisely why they couldn't win with him at the helm.

Consider this:

Murton, Pie, Eric Patterson, Petrick, Guzman, Marmol, Hoffpauir, Soto, Fontenot, Theriot, Cedeno, Hill, Marshall, Pignatiello, Gallagher, Hart, Samardzija, Ascanio, Randy Wells, Pagan, Jake Fox, Sam Fuld, Scott Moore, Clay Rapada, Cherry.

These are all guys in their mid-to-late 20's with 2 years or less service time during Piniella's regime.

How many in that group are left/expected back? Guzman, Soto, Marmol, Theriot, Fontenot, Hoffpauir, Marshall, and Samardzija. Now, Pie, Hart, Hill, Cedeno,and Ascanio might all "be" with the team right now, but all have been rumored in trades. So, that being said...25 guys were listed...and 8 might be with our team next year. Guzman and Marshall have also been rumored in deals, so you could knock that number to 6.

Now, I'm not saying Rapada, Cherry, etc. should be on the team right now, but I'm merely stating that these guys were sent up and down several times after many landed in the Piniella's doghouse. I'm very disappointed that some of these guys weren't given a fair shake. Who knows, E. Patterson might've been a little sparkplug for us in the mold of a Roberts (sure, we got Harden out of his trade, but I'm just stating...) When you play a guy for one or two games and he has a rough inning, or a bat couple at bats, and you promptly ship him out, then that's not giving him a fair shake, but that's precisely how the Cubshave operated for quite some time, and it's really wearing thin on me, especially when we watch guys like Hill, Pie, Cedeno, Corey Patterson, Murton, and others like Hart completely lose most of their trade value in the process.

True..but hopefully they have some sort of flexibility for it. If the O's are asking a steep price for him, the only way I see it being done is if the Cubs can negotiate a deal with him.

I don't know...frankly Id just assume keep things how they are....leave Soriano in the leadoff spot but do the LaRussa trick and put Theriot in the 9th spot ahead of Soriano.

if Roberts is put on the block who do you think the Orioles would want in return? you no is going to be somebody we dont want to let go.

I agree with Joe, Pie would be involved. I do not think Cedeno would. They just signed Izturis and traded for Ryan Freel. I think Hendry would push for Marquis and cash, along with a reliever or two, maybe Wuertz and probably Rich Hill. MacPhail knows Hill has a huge upside and lefties are given tons of chances.

It would be 'expensive' to try to acquire Roberts, especially with the risk it could be a 1-year rental.

I think the only way they acquire Roberts anytime this off-season or during it is if the Cubs are granted a window to negotiate a long-term deal with Roberts to prevent him from filing for free agency.

Joe....but with the impending sale of the team, that might not be an option.

It will start with Pie for sure....probably include Cedeno....and go from there....

no wonder he stayed with the dodgers the guy is a true ss i cant see him moving over. hes got the best arm at ss in da league

i know the braves are mad with the furcal outcome but with eascobar at ss and johnson at 2b what was the braves plans if they would of acquired furcal?

any one?

Erik...the Braves were thinking about putting Johnson in Left, Furcal at second and Escobar at short.

its been said that the orioles are going to offer B.Roberts an extention and if he decline the orioles will shop him. do you think the cubs will get involved?

Erik...if Roberts is put on the block, yes I think the Cubs will try again....and I am not the only one.

Sad to hear that ace-closer of the 80's for the Astros..and a Chicago Cub at the end of his career Dave Smith passed away here in San Diego at 53.

Smith didnt fare well with the Cubs saving 17 games in 1991 with a 6.00 ERA. That was a shame as he had only had two seasons out of eleven which his ERA was above 2.76, and those were early in his career.

It appears Furcal signed a 3-year deal with the Dodgers and the Braves are furious about it. Just glad he didnt wind up here.

Now if only someone would sign Dunn already.....

Love the sound of that trade Jim. Ethier looks like he'll develop into a solid everyday player. Soriano hasn't played up to his contract and his defense is just terrible. If they can pull this off I'd love to see if Hendry can revisit a trade for Brian Roberts again. Pie, Fontenot, Wuertz & Rich Hill should be enough to get it done. Of course the McFAIL factor could blow it all up. Otherwise offer the same package to the Padres and grab Peevy.

Poor Rich Hill...he still hasn't figured it out yet...it's like trying to figure out Prior.

Do you really think someone would take a flyer on him now?

I think someone is likely to get a steal by getting Rich Hill. Lou and patience with young players absolutely sucks! We will probably lose Pie and Hill because Lou gave up on them. It's a shame.

Rich Hill's success in 2007 is reason to believe he will bounce back.

Hill was bansihed to the minors after just 5 starts last year. His only issue was walking too many people. The funny thing is that the walks weren't completely killing him. In those 5 starts he never had more than 3 earned runs given up, and that was only one time. He still was striking out almost 1 per inning. He wasn't getting roped by batters. They were only hitting .191 against him. He only gave up two homeruns. He was 1-0 in his games and in fact the team was 3-2 in the 5 games he pitched. The two games they lost were his first which he pitched 6 innings, only gave up 2 runs and the team lost 4-3. The other game was his final one which he was yanked after just 2/3 of an inning but he only gave up one run and the team lost 5-3. Easily the yeam could have been 5-0 in the 5 games he started. With as effective as he was in 2007 he deserved to be stuck with. Banishing him to the minors so soon was a crappy decision and only made the situation worse with his mind.

Not to mention, a guy by the name of Ted Lilly started off worse than Hill did. Lilly was 1-4 with a 6.46 ERA in his first 6 starts. In Lilly's first 3 starts he got his ass kicked, lasting 4.2, 3.2, and 4.1 innings. He gave up 4 earned runs his first start and then 5 earned runs each of his next 3 starts.

Lilly didn't get buried, and in fact wound up going 16-5 the rest of the way.

Someone is going to score big on Hill and that's a shame. Lou is great in alot of ways. Dealing with young players is NOT one of them.

Joe -

Before bashing the Cubs for banishing Hill to the minors because Lou has no patience... please check out his game logs in the minors after his demotion.

He had 7 starts in AAA after being demoted. I the 7 starts, he pitched 26 innings and walked 28. OK - so he also had 32 Ks - but that doesn't mean he was pitching well. Then they bumped him down to A+ ball and he walked 11 in 12 innings.... so he improved.

Does he have talent? Yes.

Does he have issues? Yes.

Do you remember the story of Rick Ankiel? The same guy that was bashing homers for the Cards last year? Well he was a highly touted pitcher for the Cardinals - had a GREAT rookie season - 3.50 ERA and 11 wins in 30+ starts for a playoff team... and then had a complete meltdown with his control. I remember the playoff game that he started that year - and threw (someone back me up as this is just from memory) 4 wild pitches... a couple of them hitting the backstop on the fly... before he mercifully got pulled from the game.

Then the next season.... had (ironically enough since I'm comparing him to Hill) 6 starts before getting demoted. Walked 25 in 24 innings. He went down the minors and worked at trying to get his pitching ironed out - made it back to the bigs three years later but although his control was better, his confidence was shot and he gave up pitching altogether.

Have to respect the guy for turning himself into a pretty good hitter though... but he gave up on pitching because he was shattered mentally.

He's not the first guy that kind of thing happened to (Mark Wholers comes to mind) and he won't be the last unfortunately.... and it sounds like Rich Hill could be the most recent one.

THE GOOD NEWS though... Hill had 3 starts at the very end of the season (after working through phantom "arm troubles" that many thought was just the Cubs brass keeping him from pitching organized baseball so his value wouldn't drop any lower) and he pitched fairly well in rookie ball. Of course the competition was lower level, and he still walked 5 in 11 innings... but it WAS an improvement.

Just don't put this down as "he's just another example of Lou's doghouse".

Not that it doesn't happen - but in the case of Hill it's an unfair characterization.

I respect your opinion, but I still stand by the fact I feel both Hill and Pie have been screwed by Lou.

I figured somone would throw Ankiel into the mix, and their one full season stats are actually quite similar.

I still say Hill didnt deserve to be demoted when he was. If it werent for the fact he was a veteran and not able to be optioned, Lilly would/should have been the one shipped out based on their first months stats.

I'm not saying I was happy with Hill's walks. But, he was having that issue in spring training as well, about 1 K and 1 BB per inning. However there he was getting roped with hits and giving up runs. As I pointed out, he was not giving up many hits, and his ERA was very respectable. Lou could have gone along longer with him. 5 starts is not the time to give up on a guy who was so solid the year before.

It's practically the same story with Pie as well.

Ankiel's issue, IMO, was intensified due to the fact he had a melt down on national TV during the playoffs (world series even? and he was put on center stage because of it. He was a 20 year old kid....thats alot of pressure and I can see how he lost all confidence.

Hill on the other hand is 28 (gonna be 29)....young fragile mind is not really the issue for him as Ankiel. Although, having Lou on your ass, can certainly demoralize a person. He was 28 but it was only his 2nd full season in the majors. If I am not mistaken they tried to tweak his delivery all spring and that may have been a big cause of his issue.

I'll give you Pie - I don't think he got quite the shot he should have. Ryno's 1 for April start in his rookie year is an example of a prospect fighting through the adjustment to the bigs and I think he worked out pretty well in the long run LOL.

I understand about why he had a short leash though - he was a starter on a team with playoff aspirations and he didn't produce. And Johnson and Edmonds did a more than respectable job after he was demoted after all.... but this team had enough firepower that I would have been happy with the kid hitting 8th and .220 for a little while longer. His defense was good enough to justify it.

As for Hill though....

The other example I have about a pitcher doing a spontaneous implode.... Mark Wholers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wohlema01.shtml

Closer for Atlanta - in '96 he saved 39 games (back when that number was exceptional instead of the norm) with 100 Ks in 77 innings and an all-star appearance - in '97, 33 saves, 92 Ks in 69 innings. That's dominant.

Then all of a sudden in '98 - at age 28 - the wheels fell off the bus. Only pitched 20 innings with a whopping 38 walks and a 10+ ERA... two years later he's out of baseball.

So sometimes pitchers just "lose it"

That seems to be what happened to Hill last year. He got pulled from the rotation early for the walks and sent down so he could get some work in without the whole 100 years circus adding to the pressure... and he just never came back around.

I'm pulling for the kid though - gotta love that hook of his. Makes hitter look flat out silly sometimes. He's fun to watch :-)

People who spend time on pitchers named Derek frequent Lowe places. In the real world, the rumors are gaining strength that Teixeira goes to the Red Sox and Manny goes to the Yankees. Well, at least only one of them can play in the World Series. I have thoght that Arte Moreno's Angels would match the high bid for Tex and sign him to an 8 year deal in the end. Maybe not.

The Dodgers losing Manny,I think, opens the door ever so slightly that the Dodgers would trade for Soriano. That would mean they think Alfonso is a likely 40 HR guy and that Joe Torre likes his former Yankee employee.

If the deal were Ethier (corner OF), Elbert (LHP), DeJesus (SS) and Schmidt's (RHP) ($12 mil 1 year contract for Soriano, Hart or Guzman, and Marquis' $10 mil 1 year contract, would JH (or any of us) say yes. Maybe Schmidt can come back as a spot long reliever or spot starter this year and maybe not.

Moving Soriano frees up the cash for signing Bradley who would play LF. Ethier would play RF and Dome would have first shot at CF. Ethier and Bradley are capable of 50 + HR's between them and .300 + BA's. Elbert recovered from his arm issues in the 2nd half last year and was 2.40 ERA, 22H in 41 IP, 20 W and 46 SO's at AA. He was called up late and could be a Marmol-like lefty in the pen. DeJesus had a break-out year and would continue a Cubs' family tradition in another year or so. I think Soriano will hit 40 HR's in 2009, but I would do the deal.

This just in:

Sandberg to manage in Double-A. Hall of Famer promoted to Tennessee as Cubs shuffle Minors staffs.

Thats good news. Would love to see him managing the big league club one day.

In no way are the Cubs interested in Lowe. Boras is infamous for creating a buzz about his clients. Does anyone remember Texas bidding against itself for ARod?

I don't blame organizations for not wanting to negotiate with him. I also can't blame a player for hiring either.

Neil....thank you again for the mention of the website for my daughter. This has been an incredible year long journey. I appreciate the help and support.

A tip of the ol Cub hat to you....glad I found this site. Love talking Cubs with everyone...

Joe...you are more than welcome.

You are right on the Furcal 'thing'. The Braves are more than angry. This all sounds very familiar...

Also, Dave Kaplan said the Cubs are stepping up their pursuit of Milton Bradley.

The Mets are thinking Lowe's price tag is 4 years @ $17MM a year... which is crazy for any player at 35. I would be stunned to see the Cubs sign anyone for that money given their current payroll. I think anyone that signs him will get two years of joy followed by two years of "how do we get rid of this contract"

It would only make sense for the Cubs with a one year contract...and that is not going to happen.

Marquis's value will go up...the later we go into the Hot Stove League...and the better pitchers get signed. He has been a good first half pitcher and does eat innings...so he does have value with only a one year committment. Hendry really should not have a problem moving

him and his contract....IF he packages

Marshall with a prospect someone wants...

he really should not have to eat much

of his contract.

Hendry's history suggests if Peavy doesn't happen...he will look for a vet

pitcher on the downside or someone completing his rehab for a comback. A one year contract or even a minor league

(prove yourself deal)...like the Red Sox

did with Bartolo Colon last year. Detroit

& Matt Clement this year...The flyer he took on Jon Lieber last year.

Given his history I wouldn't be surprised

with a Randy Johnson signing//Pedro Martinez// Even another minor league (prove yourself to Mark Prior).

Let's hope he does something better before he gets to that!!!

Suzy S

While I agree Lowe would look nice in our rotation, I don't see it happening with all the competition for his services...Randy Johnson would be a good choice, also.

Still shaking my head over Gathright, 'tho...Even Teahen would've been preferable.

I do think that the Cubs could win ahundred games next year, but I am worried about that our bullpen will be so young and I wonder if they can keep together without a veteran being present.

However, I do think something big is going to happen since Joey Gathright is here, know I have a feeling that feeling that Felix Pie will get traded and something big is going to happen.Now about those prospects Felix Pie and Angel Guzman is out of options so I understand why they could be in the package for Peavy.I do not want to the Cubs to give up Josh Vitters but I did not want them to give up Sean Gallager either and he got traded in the Rich Harden deal.Now the Cubs will have to decide if they want to sign Harden to a long term deal, or I will think that giving up Gallager was a huge mistake.

You know who else should've been a great fit at Wrigley? Jason Marquis. Pass on Lowe.

This is my first time posting on this site while looking at the site about 3 times a day for the past 4 months or so. Great site and you guys do such a great job at taking lots of information and summarizing it.

Ronald, I do feel your frustration of taking about the same contract as Lowe for Peavy. Peavy is much younger, his stuff is nasty, and won the cy young with a not so great team. But would you pay for that contract and give up Pie, maybe De Rosa, and even our top prospect Josh Vitters? I hardly even wanted this trade done because the Cubs would be giving up way too much for a team that wants to get rid of him. I think there is about a 0-5% chance of getting Lowe because of course, the Yankees would like to add another pitcher, the Red Sox have lots of money and maybe Lowe could be that 5th spot in the pitching staff instead of having Beckett or Buchholz who did not have a good year at all. The Angels also want him, the Braves didn't get Peavy or Beckett. So I think there is no chance of getting him. I think as long as we get Milton Bradely, the Cubs could win 100 next year. But having another good pitcher in our rotation would be nice.

Bryce....welcome to the CCO!

I do not think that Derek Lowe is a great fit, because they claimed that they not have enough money to take on Peavy contract and know they might want to give Derek Lowe that same contract.Frankly I will take Peavy because he is much younger.