Today's lineup:

Fukudome - DH
Patterson - LF
Lee - 1B
Ramirez - 3B
Ward - RF
Edmonds - CF
Soto - C
Fontenot - 2B
Cedeno - SS

Great to see Ward back in the lineup!

where do u find out the lineup so early?

Lou beat me to it.

I came to the CCO today to specifically suggest letting Kozy-K get a DH start. He's sore, but weve missed his bat.

JJ, check out the Chicago radio stations.

Bruce Levine is usually on it pretty quick. If not, Provus and the pregame guys get it out there pretty quick.

Is that how you get it done too Neil?

Matt:

Neil, is very modest but he has the number to the Cub Clubhouse and he usually talks to Mike Quade.

Oh snap!

Does he have the number to the blonde girl that grabs foul balls and tosses em to the crowd, too?

Well. Like the lineup today, with the exception on mighty Mike, wish DeRo was in there today.

Great to see Fukudome back in the line-up.....but Ward in RF???? Now THAT could be interesting......

Derrek has to cut out this DP stuff..

A lineup change when Soriano comes back?

We really need to start up a hit-and-run or something when Lee is up because his DP's are getting out of control. Also, I think we need to take a serious look at putting Soriano in the 3 hole when he gets back.

Drew are we linked up or what, haha

Hawk and DJ are killing me...

What the hell is going on with Lee, man.

Mad props to RC Cola right there!

2 great minds think alike! I also agree I cannot stand Hawk and DJ although I do get pleasure hearing them get pissed off when we beat them. Nice play by Cedeno there.

Please no DP Lee

D-Lee anything but GIDP...

No comment...I'm going to take a shower

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE F-ING KIDDING ME

Seriously...Oo;

...

That's two today....c'mon Derrek quit trying to pull everything please.

My name is D-Lee..I like to pull everything despite the fact that when I hit good I drive the ball the other way.

Too late. DP Lee strikes again and is now leads all of baseball.

Patterson is lost in LF today too...

Would it kill D-Lee to stop rolling over on a guy who's stuff divebombs off the table?

When he reads the scouting report and it says FORKBALL in size 72 bold font, he must scream, omg, flyball pitcher -_-;;;

I hate d playlee he is a carrer choke artist. .224 with bases loaded .205 lips.

Rich Harden was lights out last night. He would be an easier get than c.c. also i would love to see another left for the pen.Alan Embree anyone?

It's time to move D-Lee out of the 3-hole. I'm tired of seeing him bounce into ANOTHER double play. I advocate either Ramirez or Fukudome.

Dye was out as hell...

well this game is over.

agreed Lee should be batting sixth. his avg. with risp is Brooks Kietchsnick like

Dye was toast, he slid right into the tag, bad call. This is getting ugly. Wake Up CUBS!!!!

oh god have we drunk the kool aid again? somebody talk me down

OMG!!!! Unreal, really despise the SUX.

Well unfortunately, replay looked like Dye was indeed safe. Demps and EP are having very bad days. The silver lining is that it is very early in the game and the offense is capable of coming back.

Wheres that rain?

Please cancel this game..

i dont hate the sox but sox fans and thier massive inferiority complex are like nails on a chalkboard.

Patterson is Channeling Soriano.

I think Lee needs to take a look at how Swisher went with the pitch.

Not this offense.

And Im the optimist of all optimists.

Lee is in a real bad funk. Fukudome is having to bat out of place. Soriano is out. Cedeno is sliding from where he was earlier in the season..

We just need to get healthy and quick.

I think Lee should take a look at real estste in cleveland and oaklan.

Something to consider. A majority of the Cubs games have been at home and they have an outstanding record at home, which had undoubtedly aided them in staying atop the central.

When they go on the road they are a much different team..more mediocre than anything...the win/loss record, players hitting splits, and some of the pitching show that.

So I ask, are the Cubs overall a great or good team and the standings really reflect they are that good, or are they only appearing that good because of the home field advantage they have had thus far in their schedule? Will the 2nd half of the schedule which features a high number of road games show that the Cubs aren't quite the calibur of a team that they have showed in the first half?

Making the postseason is great, but it would be difficult to move through the postseason series if you cannot win the games that aren't in your own ballpark.

Hmm....

With the way dempster was pitching, why on earth did they leave him in so long? on know it's still early, but he clearly didnt have his stuff today. 4 runs isn't as bad as 8 runs to come back from.

Good lord we have sucked over the past week...

Even with Z healthy there are three holes in the rotation.I dont care if Hendry has to empty the farm system,without another terminator at the top of the rotation we are not winning a world series

Consider this Rob.

Most of this bad streak occured in games that were out of our normal elements.

AL ballparks and rules, not to mention the artificial turf. It makes a difference I hear. These games have been played by a beat up team.

And remember. Injuries hurt more than our starting lineup and rotation. It also hurts our bench. (The same bench that was a plus when the starters were healthy. And the same bench that allowed us to come from behind so many times earlier.)

Lets go Royals and Twins.

That seemed kinda spiteful the way I started that comment.

I didnt mean it to read so mean. I promise, haha. =)

I think the cubs record will tend to level off a tad on the road and at home.The law of large numbers and all.Look the only thing that matters is WINNING THE WORLD SERIES!

Can we let our long reliever go long, Lou...

Let him save the bullpen.

Jon has starter dexterity..

THe cubs play an American league style of ball so that should not matter.The injuries are scary and all but you had to figure the cubs would have a rough spot or two to push through,the thing that worried me is that you usually have to push through with good starting pitching.

That would be starter constitution.

Rob, I don't know about that, there are only four teams in all of baseball that have a winning record on the road. But I do agree we ned to start playing better away from Wrigley.

And Matt you are right we need to get healthy quick.

Rob, I don't know about that, there are only four teams in all of baseball that have a winning record on the road. But I do agree we ned to start playing better away from Wrigley.

And Matt you are right we need to get healthy quick.

On the positive side, Ronny Cedeno just made back to back amazing plays...not a bad time to start showing his trade value if nothing else. Soto and Fontenot going deep!

Back to back jacks!!!!

Make me a believer Cubs..Come back.

Way to go Geo and Pocket Rocket!

Well, the good news is Lee can't hit into a double play this time.

Was there no Right handed bat that could have hit for EPat in that situation? DeRosa? Anyone? Hello Lou? Head scratcher.

Where are the pom pom cheerleaders today... Silent?

I think we sould put D-Lee on the DL for ineffectivitis and call up Hoff-power...Hopefully D-Lee can work on somethings with Gerald Perry over that time period and get back in a groove....We really need his bat if we want to continue to have the best record in baseball.

baron... If I'm among the accused, I'm not hiding. Saw the first 3 innings when our poor OF play led to 4 runs instead of 2 and Lee could have made the score at least 2-1. The deterioration seems to have continued. While I was watching, there wasn't much to cheer about. But I'm not going to cut off my head.

Well, that sucked.

OK guys....I too am frustrated by D. Lee's double plays....BUT c'mon this guy is one of our workhorses.....he is a GOLD GLOVE 1st baseman...and despite his recent struggles...he's still hitting almost .300 with his power showing again 18 2B's/15 HR's. And fans are complaining this much about him??? I don't get it.

Instead of his crappy start like he typically has, he bustde out of the gate with a .371 average through April and showed his wrist was heeled by belting 9 2B's and 8 HR's. He slumped badly in May hitting .234 with only 5 HR's. In June he hasn't been red hot, but has managed to hit .264 although with only 2 HR's. No hitter is going to tear it up each and every month. He has been one of the more consistant hitters as far as home and road goes. I think we've all seen the stats of how well players are hitting at Wrigley versus on the road. Lee splits pretty even with .288 at home and .285 on the road. He does have a huge power difference with 13 HR's in Wrigley and only 2 on the road.

His average is also pretty even based on Lefty/Righty pitchers with a .312 against lefties and .279 against righties. Same thing with his day/night split. He hits .293 during the day and .281 at night. All pretty consistent numbers.

That and his stellar defense at first base I think fans need to back off of D. Lee.

Joe,

you are both right and wrong.... D. Lee's worth as an overall offense-defense based player cannot be questioned. But, the truth is -- he is not a 3 hole hitter. He is EXTREMELY vulnerable to off-speed low and away pitches, and shows no patience with these. Your 3 and 4 hole hitters have to be super-stars, who are either super-tough outs, or hit 50 HR consistently.....

Offensively, he's just being asked to do something that should not be his role. A-Ram is the best hitter in the lineup by a mile and a half(strangely enough, followed by Theriot, IMHO). D Lee has power and reasonable discipline and would do much better batting at 5. Moving A-Ram to 5 and Slotting Edmonds/De Rosa between him and Lee would a) give them better pitches to hit b) take the RISP pressure of him to a certain extent. c) Force him to be smarter with his AB's with AAA players like Fontenot and Cedeno behind him.

And please don't start lathering Hoffpauir with saliva... He had a .284 career average in the minor leagues without a single season of more than 20HR...

Hoffpauir vs Lee is not a comparison... unless your IQ is under 50. But nevertheless, a shuffle of the lineup is in order

err.. A-Ram to 3

......Uh, never mind! LOL This only counts as 1 loss doesn't it? Get them tomorrow! GO CUBS!

Hey Joe,
We all love Derrek, but this is not a passing issue. He leads the Majors with 19 GDPs He had 19 for the entire season last year. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, his lifetime average with RISP is horrific. I'm not advocating throwing him under the bus, by any means, but perhaps he could be more productive in the 6 hole. Fukodome could go into the 3rd spot where he has batted most of his career and they could do more of that alternating lefty/righty thing.

Anyone else worried about out pitching yet?

I think we need to buy Gramps a mini skirt and 2 batons.. or maybe not.... (yikes!!)

this just further illustrates my point that we're not even close to a WS team.....19 GIDP's...Are you kidding me? Theriot has what, 10 or 11, and DeRosa has 8...They kill rallies, and it was only a matter of time before it started affected our record BIG time....

Truthfully, because he isn't clutch, I'd try somehow to give him a lot of days off and bring up Hoffpauir until he can get his swing back with Perry. If he can't, you have to sell high...I'm serious...you guys say he's like this all world first baseman sometimes, and I just don't get it....even when he was with the Pads and Marlins, he was never an amazing run producer. He's had exactly one 100 RBI season...

Hey, remember #17...not Fontenot...that first baseman we had that supposedly had no power and wasn't of much use to MacFailed and Hendry....Well, here's Grace's line:
.303 avg, .383 OBP, 176 hits, 12 HR, 83 RBI, 78 BB, 46 K's

Lee's line:
.282 avg, .367 OBP, 160 hits, 28 HR, 87 RBI, 72 BB, 133 K's

Guys, here's the thing....that is so easily replaceable at first base, it's not even funny....first baseman that can average that are a dime a dozen. For crying out loud, even Frank Thomas, at 50 years old could still average that.

I think as Cubs fans, we tend to look at a players best year, and say that we can count on that every year from then on out....I think you have to play with averages. I just think that he's easily replaceable. Please, and don't even say his defense makes it all worth it, because it doesn't. I remember some on here even saying that about Izturis...My, what a joke that was.

to further illustrate my point, here's Lee's ranking among first baseman in stats:
avg.=#12 (Ward is 14 btw, Hoffpauir is #1)
OBP=#21 (Ward is 2, Hoffpauir is 4)
Hits-#3
Doubles=#4
Triples=#8
HR=#8 (5 ahead of him have played in 5 or more less games)
RBI=#6
Total Bases=#3
BB=#15
K's=#15
SB=#3
CS=#5
SLG=#11 (Hoffpauir is #4 just FYI)
GIDP=#1.....closest is James Loney with 17, not sure though if Lee's 19 includes the 2 today though

There, I just spelled everything out for you....now, obviously Lee is slightly above average, and it's true that perhaps there's no way to replace his production, but it's also true that in several key categories, HR, RBI, etc., he's about 1 to 3 away from being dropped like 7 spots in some cases. I know for sure he's dropped in HR and RBI with Delgado's huge day today...Anyway, perhaps it's time to do the proverbial "sell high"----I know, I know, completely ridiculous....even I think it's ridiculous, given the fact he's considered one of the leaders, and can, at times, be a big producer, but I also feel that we could get a lot for him. If we get back Soriano soon, and could lock Sabathia up long-term, what would you think of a straight up trade of Lee for Sabathia? Replace Lee at first with a Hoffpauir/Ward combo, and you might just equal his production, and you'd still have insurance pitching-wise in the minors to be able to trade Marquis.

As we always say on here, you have to give value to get value...On one hand my criticism of Lee might not be fair, given that he's simply had a REALLY rough 2 months, but on the other hand, it TOTALLY makes sense.

With Soriano coming back and making up for Lee's power tenfold, and coupling that with his potential replacements (Hoffpauir and Ward), I don't feel we'd be that bad off, especially considering they both can get on base at an equal, if not better pace, allowing ARAM, our top run producer to drive them in. We need pitching BIG time.....Perhaps including Marquis and a prospect with Lee could land us Sabathia, Laffey, and another 1B/IF prospect from the Indians?

I think of all trades, this makes the most sense, because Hafner has not produced for them, and they realize Sabathia probably will be elsewhere and okay, maybe they keep Laffey and realize they can take on the Twins and White Sox....Like the Volquez/Hamilton trade, it's a win-win situation for both teams

Jeff in AZ....I am right there with you.

Aaron, Lee grounded into #18 and #19 today.

Aaron:

I would deal D.Lee for:

Votto and Harang (Cincy)

Figgins and Santana (LAA)

Roberts, Sherril, Cabrera (Balt)

Rios and Burnett (TOR)

Cain/Lincecom (SF)

Greinke and DeJesus (KC)

In some of these proposed deals we might have to sweeten the pot. What do you think? Let me know of some D Lee trades that could be resonable. I'm not looking to trade him but he has to get out of the 3 spot.

Wow, Jim (TP), you hit it on the nose...Here's what I think though....Unless a team is in contention or plans to be next year, they won't trade for Lee...I doubt SF would take on another veteran like Lee when they want to get young...I would bet ANYTHING KC would do that in a heartbeat though, as veteran leadership is what they have been sorely lacking, and Lee is still productive enough, where Sweeney wasn't for them. I'd absolutely LOVE that deal. However, I'd require more than that from them, and perhaps include Marquis for them to get it done. I'd do the LAA, TOR, or BALT deals anyday as well, however, considering LAA were supposedly requiring ARAM straight up for Figgins, I highly doubt they'd do that, especially with Kotchman at 1B. TOR might be very possible as I know they still feel they're somewhat in it, but have been very unhappy with Rios and Burnett. With Baltimore, that solves all our needs in one swoop, which would be amazing. Losing Lee, you'd throw Roberts in lead-off, move DeRosa to super-sub, which he excels in, Sherrill would be the lefty reliever we so desperately need, and Cabrera whom they've soured on, could be our answer for Marquis in the rotation. I think a change in league would do him very well. HOWEVER, knowing MacFailed and Angelos, they'd ask for ARAM, Lee, and Soriano in that deal, altogether...LOL. I mean, Angelos has to be the most retarded executive in all of baseball. But man, good thinking on that Jim, as it'd solve all our needs, and truthfully, most people would say that's equal value. Look, they aren't going to extend Cabrera or Sherrill, and they shopped Roberts, so maybe giving them Fontenot back in the deal would get it done...maybe including Marshall or Hill as well would help.

I hope Hendry looks at this page, because given the state of our farm system, we don't have much to offer, so it's going to have to be a veteran, and Lee, at his age and prior production is perhaps our best chip to trade to get value. You can't tell me Marquis, Eyre, Howry, Fontenot, Cedeno, Wuertz, etc. would give us anything close to what Lee would provide via trade. Even including Colvin, Veal, Samardzija, Gallagher, etc. wouldn't land anything of great value....I could be wrong, but that's my opinion

Aaron:

I think, that I know how you think. You are a think out of the box type of guy. I might have only disagreed with maybe 1 or 2 of your posts the last 3 years. Maybe we are related? Anyway, A stud type pitcher was included in all my proposed D.Lee deals.
I seriously doubt that Hendry could land a #1 or #2
starting pitcher for a Bobby Hill. Littlefield is out of Pittsburgh and you have to give quality to get quality. Lee is probably are most valuable poker chip and I agree, First base is probably the easiest position to fill.

Jim...I was thinking the same thing....I like to think of it as a combo of out of the box (which annoys me about most upper management people in the world today---because they use that cliche term so much, and never do...LOL) and logic.

Here's deductive logic for you:

Marquis/Lilly=about 5 innings average of ineffectiveness

Wuertz/Cotts/Eyre/Lieber=scary

Lee/Theriot/DeRosa=GIDP waiting to happen

Okay, so here's the synopsis:

the starting pitcher is ineffective (2 of our 5), and both have about 5 ERA's, meaning we could potentially be down 5-6 runs by the 5th inning

After that, our middle relief led by the cast I just mentioned gives up inherited runs. If the starting pitcher lasts until the 5th, chances are it's with runners left on base, otherwise they probably wouldn't come out, right? Usual cast is Eyre (if LH batter is up), and he'll let the runs come across, then Lou figures it's the 5th, so he's gotta fill the void, and leaves Eyre in there, and Eyre can't get out of it...giving up about 2 more of his OWN runs, then Wuertz will come in and proceed to give up the remaining runners on base, then get out of the inning unscathed himself. If his spot isn't up in the next inning, Lou will let him start the next inning, and usually he does just fine without runners on, so he gives you 1 1/3 or 1 2/3 innings, getting you to the 7th where Cotts might come into play....which is where my next point comes...

So it's the 5th-9th innings, runners on base, and Lee comes up...normally you think, "wow, now we have a chance to get back in this," but quickly, your hopes are dashed because ARAM can't seem to lock Lee in the clubhouse bathroom so he can deliver in the clutch, and he's stuck in the on deck circle in despair as Lee ruins yet another chance for him to add to his RBI total and the teams chances to win....maybe another scenario is Lee grounds out (surprise) to start the inning, followed by a ARAM single, double, or walk, then a Soto single or walk, and DeRosa comes up, only to dash your hopes with a GIDP to end the inning...then...

Cotts comes into play with the game down in the 7th (where normally Howry would make an appearance), but because we're down, Cotts is in there, and proceeds to give up another run or two for good measure, and might be replaced by Lieber who hasn't seen action for the last month, and gives up Cotts' runners on base, but gets out of the inning unscathed....

Edmonds starts the next inning with a walk, double, or bomb, then a pinch hitter comes up (Ward maybe) and walks, bringing up the top of the order, and they fly out, and bring up Theriot, who promptly grounds into a double play....

blah, blah, blah, you get the point....it's a scenario that's been played out in like ALL of our losses, and it gets old.

Anyway, the whole point is that you use deductive logic to find the holes, which were the 2 SP's, replacing at least two of those relievers, and finding a way to separate, trade, or bench Lee, Theriot, or DeRosa enough so they can't wreck any chance of a comeback. I'd say if you get rid of the world leading GIDP leader in Lee, you'll drastically improve your chances of winning a few games.

at least the Cards and Brew Crew lost tonight....man, has the NL sucked ass or what in interleague?!?!? WOW, I'm scared of the AL....they've dominated the AS game as well as the WS...I'm surprised the Marlins, Cards, and D'Backs even won when they did....Did any of you see that stat that the NL hasn't won the AS game since like '96....Is that even true? I hope it's not...doesn't bode well for us if we make the playoffs with home-field

Aaron:

With the way we get on base, we are a GIDP waiting to happen. I like Derosa as a super sub/part time second baseman. I also would like to see Fontenot play 2b no more than twice/three times a week.

For the most part I Like Theriot, but he is only effective when he uses his inside-out swing and goes to RF. He will stay out of GIDP when he does that.

Lieber is ok as a longman. When you think about it, who really flurishes in that role?

Eyre, Cotts and Wuertz are expedable.
I'm done with Murton as well.

Hendry does need to make a prudent deal to improve:

* Starting rotation
* A southpaw out of the pen
* A bonafide backup OF, who can play all 3 spots.
I'm not ready to give up on E Patterson at 2b but
LF isn't his spot.

Tinley Park Jim

"I'm not ready to give up on E Patterson at 2b but
LF isn't his spot"

UHHH! Ok... lets stick him in uhhh.. Nitpicking at defeats is kind of dumb.... addressing bigger picture deficiencies is where we must focus...

Lee leads in GIDP... Lilly and Marquis have ERA's hovering around 5.00, halfway into the season......

$20 if you can guess our POTENTIAL playoff rotation....

if you said Z-Dempster-Gallagher --- you get $20.

If you said Z-Lilly-Marquis... you should kill yourself

if you said Z-Harden-XX -- go straight to www.nudeplaymates.com --- you're living a fantasy...

If you said Z-Sabathia-XX ---- uh.. you should go on a diet.

If you want Hoffpauir in the 3 hole.... all hope is lost...

Baron, all Jim TP and I were suggesting is that to get value, you must give up value...making Lee the most logical candidate to be traded if we are to get a quality SP.

I wouldn't give up on Patterson, but just don't see where he fits, especially with Cedeno, Fontenot, and DeRosa all seeing PT at 2B, and he's awful in LF, and it wasn't just this game, btw...

nobody even said Hoffpauir in the 3 hole, just he'd be the logical replacement if Lee were traded (highly unlikely to begin with, but worthy of discussion as we need a SP, and like we mentioned---you must give up value to get it)

Baron:

What was so wrong about saying the EPat isn't a LF and he should stick to 2b? Last Saurday and Sunday some people around here were ready to commision his bust to Cooperstown.

The playoff rotation at the moment is Z, Dempster and Gallagher. Ideally, I would prefer Dempster a #3
and Gallagher as a #5. Not mentioned, Ted Lilly s/b a #4. Desperately seeking a # 2 or #1 type.

For my porn, I go to onlybestsex.com/latina.html (What can I say I Love Latin Women)

OK....first of all no disrespect to anyone here...but the D Lee trade talk is just stupid.

Here is where he ranks in key stats for the Cubs:
Runs Scored: Leads with 55 (8th in the NL)
Hits: Tied for Lead with 92 (Tied for 6th in NL)
2B's: 2nd with 18
3B's: Tied for Lead with 2
HR's: Tied for Lead with 15
RBI's: 2nd with 38
Total Bases: Leads with 159

Now on to strike outs.....the talk about his whiffing on the low and away pitch. (yes that pitch annoys me with him too....BUT....)
Lee has 53 K's, Ramirez has 52 K's, and Fukudome has 50 K's. (And Fukudome against a LH pitcher who throws low and away is just brutal). So, his K's are in line with the others.

Now WHY would you trade one of your better hitters? Yes, fine he has hit into 19 DP's.....SO WHAT??? We lead the majors in hitting...thats alot of baserunners! That increases the chances for Double Plays. Seems to be simple math there. Considering we still lead the National League in Runs Scored and we have the best record in all of baseball....I don't think those double plays are killing us too much. He has the 6th most hits in the National League for cryin out loud. Shoot, The Riot as mentioned has hit into 10 Double Plays...but he is 5th in the League in batting average and tied for 6th with Lee for hits!

Someone pointed out he only has had ONE 1900 RBI Season in his career. Here's an intersting fact for you....don't look it up...Guess how many 100 RBI seasons the great Ryne Sandberg had......just TWO. And the Hawk....Andre Dawson in 20 years had just FOUR. Mark Grace who was used to compare...had exactly...ZERO.

If there was more to argue, how about this....a team with the best record in baseball is looking to add....NOT subtract from it. You dont trade one of your stars off the team.....

Teams that dump players because they are out of the race generally do not want to acquire a veteran with a large contract anyhow. Not to mention you want to replace Lee with Hoffpauir (unproven rookie...during a hopeful World Series Run)and Ward (a tub of goo--think Terry Forster/David Letterman--who has a bad back)...not too smart.

We have trading potential as it stands with Hoffpauir, Cedeno, Murton, Pie and perhaps a few others who arent on the 40 man.

Joe S.,

In the words of Chris Katan in the movie "night at the roxbury"..."is your name tattoo...do you see planes.....cuz I swear to God you're living on Fantasy Island."

You honestly think our farm system will cut it in trades???? Believe me...I felt the same way, until I looked at others, such as the Brewers, Braves, Dodgers, Angels, etc. that are also in contention and have FAR better systems than we do, and realized we DON'T cut it....Point is, we have to give up quality to get quality...Do you think we could survive without Soriano, Fukodome, ARAM, and Z? I sure as hell don't, which means that our next biggest star...the guy we could get quality for, by default, is Lee....Do you know of a LF or 3B, or Ace in our farm system ready to replace those guys? Hell no!!!!!!!! Which is why Jim (TP) and I were suggesting Lee, because Hoffpauir and Ward can fairly easily replace his production, and they're already MLB ready guys.....but 3B and LF, we have NOBODY that can replace their production easily....
that's why we're suggesting that, and I think Hendry would be RETARDED not to look at potential deals to fill multiple holes at once

I dont have any stats to back me up, because I dont have time. But talk about trading Derrek is silly.

Derrek is more than a bat in our lineup and a great fielder. He, along with Kerry Wood, is the heart and soul of our clubhouse. (BTW, lets see someone else make the grabs out of the dirt that Lee makes)

And, yes, I do believe our farm system can net us some considerable cache.

Trust and believe. As someone who watches the (first place) I-Cubs and Tenn Smokies alot. We have some quality guys in the farm my friends.

Hoffpauir has done squat at the mlb level to even consider him starting in place of Lee.

Every single year it is the same thing: a player hits decent for 20 at-bats, and he is annointed as an "untouchable" starter on the mlb level.

This has happened with the likes of Corey Patterson, Todd Hollandsworth, Jason DuBois, Hee Sop Choi, Mark Bellhorn, Ronny Cedeno, Mike Fontenot, Felix Pie, Angel Pagan, Sam Fuld, Matt Murton, Todd Walker, etc...

What do all those guys have in common? None has ever had a full year in the mlb, with the Cubs, where they performed anywhere near an all-star level.

Yet at one time or another, each of them was the flavor of the month.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: a big-market club (like the Cubs) doesn't need to coddle and overly protect their farm system, because they can afford to acquire top players in FA (Soriano, Fukudome), and retain top players they acquire in trades (Lee, Ramirez). Those types of players are proven, solid, all-star caliber mlb players.

You don't replace those types of players with unproven farm talent like Hoffpauir, and think you will get better. Yes, you have to give to receive, but giving up Lee to receive a good pitcher (that will pitch every 5 games) is not a good move.

The Cubs need to look at a team like the A's, who would want nothing to do with a contract like Lee's, and give them farm prospects galore for Rich Harden.

That is what big-market teams need to do: use their farm system as any business would use assets that have value.

My biggest beef with Jim Hendry is that he KILLS trade value. He hunkers down in the forest with his rifle and scope, and he patiently sits there, time and time again, and kills trade value. Murton, Cedeno, Angel Guzman, Pie, Rich Hill, Corey Patterson, and even Mark Prior (remember the Tejada rumors, anyone?).

Here is a simple formula.
Farm guy lights up AA or AAA.
Farm guy is called up to mlb and is solid (sign him and keep playing him).
Farm guy is called up to mlb and is mediocre...then send him back down to AA or AAA, and if he lights up the place, and you really don't NEED him at the mlb level, then trade him for a piece you do NEED at the mlb level.
If you really do need the farm guy at the mlb level, then give him a 2nd chance (ala Rich Hill) and if he sticks, great, and if he crashes again, trade him as soon as his numbers in AA and AAA look decent, and don't ever look back.

Instead, Hendry allows his guys to be sent up and down, regardless of production and playing time consistency, and, not surprisingly, these guys don't develop. Eventually, they become like Murton and Pie, former top prospects that no longer can net you quality in a trade by themselves.

We have Soto, Theriot, Marmol, Gallagher, and maybe even Marshall, all making solid contributions. We don't need more youngsters. Technically, Z and Wood are from the farm, too.

That is more than enough. All these other guys are fair game, completely tradable, and they should be traded, for the pieces we need to cement a championship run: another SP and perhaps another solid bullpen arm.

What you don't get rid of, though, are your proven star players.

Grerat formula Jason! and I think we all agree that Jim Hendry Kills trade value...It might have to be related to vanity. He keeps dreaming to produce the next KWood or Prior and/or a position player of that caliber. Soto has been an outstanding surprise and as you can see he has no plans of trading him in the next 100 years...so that tells you that his priority is not to trade but to produce the quality player and to keep him. That usually is a bad thing because it took him 6 years after Prior to produce Soto.

BTW Jim[tp] and Aaron great discussions but I would not go there. Give DLee a break in the 5hole and remember that if you think his numbers are so easy to replace...then other teams might think the same. IMO DLee has little trade value but is a huge part of what we have done so far. The DP's are alarming but I remember last year when Big Z had that horrible start that people here were trading him everywhere. THINK for one moment what would this rotation look like right now without Z. And then rethink DLEE and what he has done so far having a normal season.
Anyway a wide angle view on things like you 2 have proposed is agood thing.

It was not going well the last 24 hours. The team played like they were hung over and the debate appeared to be coming from the same bar where the team got hung over. And then up to the plate debate stepped Joe S, Matt H, Jason B and agustin with back to back to back to back doubles (no one is completely right or wrong in most debates) and the showers ceased along the parade route.

Now, if we wanted to break up our core group, a trade of Aram + to the Dodgers for Andy LaRoche, Chad Billingsly and James McDonald + could make sense. We get a likely 90 RBI third base man (as Ron) says and 2 likely top of the rotation guys--and all are age 24. Lee at 32, with 2 years left on a no trade contract and a child in a critical health care situation isn't going to KC or a team wanting to get young. That doesn't mean he might not get moved in our lineup.

In the recent Hoffpauir, Murton, Marshall and EPat experience, my take is that we have been showcasing these guys prior to the coming trading period. We could certainly use a strong starter and a couple of pen additions. It looks more and more like the starter will have to be a trading deadline rental, because our tradeables haven't show cased very well. We should be able to get some pen help with our tradeables. I can accept the outcome with Z, D, Lilly and Gallagher if we have a four deep, highly reliable pen.

Augustin:

I'm not looking to deal D.Lee, I am only looking what to expect back if he was traded. D.Lee brings a lot to the table. HR's, decent avg and OBP, and of course a gold glove. I don't think that we are going to be able to get a #1 or #2 type of pitcher for what we have in the minors. If Hendry could pull that off that would be great. In the past, there has been some very unrealistic trade scenerios
were one of our fellow posters would say "Lets give up Nefi, Rusch, Murton for (Fill in the blank of some all-star player). You get the idea. I do believe that for the time being that Lee needs to go to the 5th spot in the line up. When the boys are finally healthy I would like to see:

LF Soriano
RF Fukudome
3b Ramirez
CF Edmonds
1b Lee
C Soto
2b Deorsa/Fontenot
ss Theriot/Cedeno
Pitcher