Talkin' Cubs Live - Cubs vs. Reds - 05/05/08

Aramis is still not in the line up and that sucks!

Aramis is out but the Sun-Times reported a trip to the DL is not expected.

Tonight's lineup:

Soriano - LF
Theriot - SS
Lee - 1B
Fukudome - RF
Soto - C
DeRosa - 3B
Fontenot - 2B
Pie - CF
Dempster - P

Just a hunch, based on several reports, this is a big start for Pie.

Can someone tell me why Ronny Cedeno hasn't been in the lineup the last couple of games? If Pinella is going to play his "hot hand" why isn't he playing his "hottest" player? I realize adding Fontenot gives us another lefty in the lineup but why not rotate him, Fonzie, DeRosa and Theriot?

I don't know Drew. Theriot shouldn't be in the lineup for Cedeno as the stats stand. Cedeno is faster, more talented and has more pop. Cedeno has 17 RBI's for God's sake. Sori has only played in 16-17 games and has more RBIs than Riot...that is nuff said.

According to Gameday Sori had two swinging strikes against a guy whose fastball is as straight as an arrow ;_;

Well thats the best start this dude has had in over a month...wierd! Come on lets go!

Hubert, your constant remarks regarding Theriot are getting old and annoying. Pick something else to dwell on, I promise you will be happier.

Prove me wrong about Theriot vs. Cedeno. Name anything he is doing better than Cedeno at this point in time, stat-wise.

Good God nice start! I need a timeout!

Hard to get mad at a guy like fontenot cause he just seems to play the game the right way and is a valuable bench guy...but plays like that show why he is not a starter...ronny can make that play no doubt and i truly believe that when Aram comes back D-ro should go to second and RC should start at short...i believe that clearly gives us our best offense and actually believe that gives us our best defense...i was impressed with RC's throw last night from third even though it was a routine play because he showed great arm strength

You cant compare stats of the two players, Theriot has 117 ab's compared to that of Cedeno who has 47. How can you possibly compare? I agree with you regarding Cedeno and his hot bat, but cant compare at this point in the season.

Another reason Cedeno should be in the lineup is his fielding. I know he's prone to some bonehead plays but he's a way better fielder than Fontenot and has ten times the arm Theriot has.

Not trying to take sides with anyone or get anyone mad but i gotta side with Hubert on this one...Riot ur post, if anything, proves Hubert right because RC has better numbers across the board even with 70 less ab's...logic would tell u that theriot should have more HR's and RBI's with 70 more ab's but it isnt even close

Nice...very f'n nice!

Just wanted to add somethin relating to this game...that being it is hard to really get on Demp here because the Reds have not hit a single ball hard and his defense booted a DP play that would have ended the inning...he has made good enought pitches he is just getting unlucky...nice pitch to bako to end it though

You can compare the fact that Cedeno has doubled Theriot's RBI total in less than half the at bats. Not to mention he's slugging .574 and getting on base at a 47% clip due to his new found ability to walk. In over 500 AB's in 2006 Cedeno had only 17 walks compared to already 7 this year. I think Cedeno has finally figured out plate discipline and deserves a shot to prove it.

I am not a Cedeno hater, he is playing great ball in limited time. And I do think he should play, but Theriot is not as bad as Hubert makes him out to be on a regular basis. In 70 less ab's RC also has 9k's compared to Theriots 11. But I dont think you can compare stats at this point. I am not hating on anyone, just sticking up for the Riot.

Lets talk about todays game....Nice Soto.

I gotta say thats an even split...

Theriot is definitely short on talent -- but he brings that Derek Jeter like intagible quality that makes things happen....

I am very happy to see Soto bat ahead of De-Rosa... I think he is WAY BETTER... De-Rosa is mostly a DP machine with a few RBI... nothing special

Nothing special? again not trying to argue with u baron but just a simple difference in opinion...D-ro's overall game is very special and we dont make the playoffs without him last year..heck he may have been our MVP and he is again showing is versatility...he comes out of spring the starting 2B and then he starts in LF and now 3B when another starter goes down

Geo is a Hero!

I agree let's concentrate on the game and I'm not a Riot hater, I think Cedeno should be playing over Fonzie for now.

Soto Bombs! What do you guys think about this lineup?

Soriano (assuming he starts hitting)
Fukudome
Lee
Ramirez
Soto
DeRosa
Cedeno/Theriot
Johnson/Pie

Since we only have 1 lefty regular trying to break up the righties is tough. This way Pinella is still breaking up Soriano and Lee and it gives Soto more RBI opportunities.

I also like the idea of having Theriot or Johnson (whoever's hot/playing) leading off and batting Soriano 5th

Hey guys, a bigger problem is Pie just looked at strike three. Piniella mentioned during his pre game show that changes are coming. Pie's days could be numbered.

Demp really does have good stuff tonight...its to bad that first inning got out of hand due to mostly bad luck...but nothin we can do bout it now so its time to battle back and get these guys!

A few thoughts....

* Can any of our f'ing starting pitchers follow Zambrano's lead.

* Pie needs to go back to Iowa. He's such an automatic out.

I hate the "Theriot brings intangibles" argument. It is overused and has been proved baseless time and time again.

Great...he hustles. So do little leaguers. Great he hustles, hustle - speed = what? Picked off again on another SB attempt rotflmao.

Great...he walks. Apparently so does everyone on our team, minus Alfonso Soriano and the pitchers. We do lead MLB in OBP.

Cedeno brings the same attributes, but with more talent. Hustle + Speed = SB. OBP + SLG = a decent OPS. Seriously though, Cedeno has 11 more RBI than Theriot with about half the AB.

Cedeno's OPS is 1.047. Theriot + HGH + a world's supply of testosterone couldn't get him to that OPS.

On a positive note, Geovany Soto is raking...now there's a complete baseball player right there. Barely in the majors and he's already one of the best hitting catchers out there.

Note to Lou: Subtract Marquis, put the guy in the rotation who apparently has a 97mph fastball in Gally.

Dempster has already thrown 49 pitches through 2...that booted double play really hurt.

Great inning by Dempster. 6ks in 2 innings

Brennaman on mlb.tv is being super obnoxious

I agree Neil. I've been a staunch supporter of Pie and have used that comparison to Pedroia to not give up on him but damn...and more importantly I think Tino over in Boston has probably more patience in his big toe than Lou does in his whole body. Pie better get the lead out. The unbelievable thing is you guys would not believe how he dominated down here in Des Moines...it's crazy. Oh and C.Patterson did not so don't go there.

Cedeno XBH = 7 in 47AB
Theriot XBH = 8 in 117 AB

Can make an identical case for RBI.

Agree baron cant stand him...as for Sori on the ball Griffey caught...that is baseball at its best i think - many times when things go bad they go real bad and when things go good (as we saw last June) they go real good...i think that is usually the case atleast when it comes to hitting but like everyone always says the bounces will even out and thats why Sori will end with his usual all-star numbers

Hey fella's.

Dempster looks good tonight, that first inning should have been over with no runs scored. Keep it up Dempt.

That was a nice catch by Griffey, I thought Sori had at least a double.

Cory,

I live in Beantown now --- The Kudos for the farm talent on the Red Sox team goes only to Theo Epstein... The guy is an exceptional evaluator of talent.... Francona hasn't had to make a tough decision

Hendry should be his masseuse...

Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Papelbon, Clay Buccholz, Jon Lester

Hendry's farm talents -- Theriot, Fontenot, Pie, Wuertz, Rich Hill, Sean Marshall...
then as a knee jerk -- $140 million to Soriano..

Jim Hendry has to rank in the bottom 5 managers in baseball... Personally, I think he is the worst.

No

Five runs all UNEARNED, judas preist!!

The defense has really stunk up the place.

I hate to keep bringing the argument up but Cedeno really is our best offensive and DEFENSIVE middle infielder

More errors and Homers to a douchbag hitting .227..who by the way is wearing on my nerves as a cub killer...can someone please just put one in his ear!

Why does this club no matter what year or personel lack the intestinal fortitude to go on a dominating win streak? Every time I think we're on the verge it's a total tank job! I mean who didn't have goose bumps when we swept the Mets? Now look at us! 3 series losses in a row to the Nats? then the Brewers..who we seem to be the only team they can beat, the frik'n cards, and now a GREAT start to an EXTREEMLY bad Reds team. Yeah!

I took some time off reading and posting on here because there are so many baseball boneheads commenting on how bad some players are or how little they know. "Theriot shouldn't be playing"...Are you serious?? Have you watched a game all season??...Do you understand baseball.....??? Theriot is the number two hitter in the lineup...it has been my experience in 15 years of playing baseball that the number two hitter doesn't drive in a lot of runs. Yea, Cedeno has been hitting great, especially with runners on. But my god people!! If Theriot was hitting like he was last September, sure...but he's not. If anything say he should be playing over DeRosa or Fontenot...DeRosa's average has really been taking a beating lately, though I know his defense is great, especially at third with ARam out, but Cedeno plays a fine 3B. Hell, throw him into centerfield over Pie. Pie is a bad bad hitter and his defense is plus but raw, so not that big of a deal. I just can't believe what I read on here sometimes and always about Theriot. I am starting to wonder if Theriot has personally offended some of you or something!? It's not just hustle that makes Theriot good right now, it's that he's actually good, and so are his numbers. Stop spewing all your baseball illiterate diarrhea and learn the game. Don't throw out meaningless stats to support your crap arguments either...it's sad and ridiculous.

This Cueto guy is nasty Oo;

Baron,

Yeah Epstein is a really really good Gm, plus young, etc...I hate him :)

Some of the site performers tonight seem to bickering sorts and not much into the game. Maybe it's the Cubs' funk extended to the Faithful. I hope the Cubs get over theirs soon--and it rubs off.

Lows: LMAO. Your rant is too hilarious.

Meaningless stats? LOL, the XBH shows the ability of the hitter not to just get on base, but get into scoring position, as well as drive in anyone that might be on base at the time.

OBP is meaningless? ROTFLMAO, it probably has the highest correlation to a team's runs scored over the longhaul.

The argument was Theriot vs. Cedeno, not whether Theriot is inadequate right now. Right now Cedeno > Theriot.

Obviously you aren't very knowledgeable yourself if you discount OBP and OPS. Even if you take stats out of the equation how many times has that little bugger been thrown out trying to steal a base while Derrek Lee is at the plate..MULTIPLE times.

Before you start calling people out you should really check your own lack of knowledge.

Lows ur argument has been heard on here many times so i dont think u are presenting anything new...i am not bashing theriot with my comments as i know he is hitting really well...plus all i think any of us are saying about cedeno is that he is better which may be a compliment to our offense - having a guy like theriot who is hitting over .300 not be in our lineup...also, idk if you were trying to scare some of us by saying we are bonehead baseball fans and that u have been playing for 15 years because i am 19 years old, have played since i was 3 (thats 16 years of baseball) and can honestly say, even though not always live as i tivo games or watch archives on mlb.tv, i have seen every Cubs game the last 5 years plus i watch atlest one other baseball game each day and am a sport management major at a major univeristy - meaning i have a def knowlegde of baseball and am not a bonehead fan making bonehead comments i am just stating facts - so dont go bashing me and other fans like u say we are bashing theriot as u are not the only one that feels u know something about baseball...and yes this post is very defensive but i feel like ur post took a shot at my baseball knowledge and others baseball knowledge with comments like "Do you understand baseball?" - and YES i do and i have no doubt i understand it better than most - and probably even better than u

IT THE REVENGE OF THE DISPISED. Soriano singles in a good AB. Theriot drives him in with a double. Then Theriot scores too with an unexpected burst of speed.

Good job Sori, Theriot, and Lee, way to hit with two outs. Soriano looked good running the bases there.

Nanana Nanana Felix just put himself of SportsCenter that was a GREAAAAAAT play...the way he was going back i really thought he had a good chance of catching it

The stats are meaningless because it's May 5th and Cedeno has 47 ABs.....47......that would equal out to starting and playing in 12 games roughly...he's actually played in parts of 22, but 47 ABs...???? Would you be willing to call a triple crown season after 12 games??? If so, then Mark Reynolds earlier this season was without a doubt the best player in the league, maybe of all time, in the history of the game...I mean, look at what his numbers were!!! You can laugh all you want, but you're the borkworm using stats to justify an argument of a players worth to a team. If you've never played baseball in your life, or been a part of a winning team it may be hard to grasp the idea that stats are certainly not everything and contrary to popular belief, numbers do lie. Trust me, I'm not saying that Cedeno isn't hitting good right now, all I'm saying is get off Theriot's back...he's a good player right now and no matter the numbers or Billy Ball stats you toss at me, it's not going to change reality. And right now we're both eating crow as Pie just made a spectacular catch and before that Theriot got an RBI and scored a run...

D is hittng too many bats hard. He gets the three outs in the 5th, but Lou needs to get the pen ready. Pie can catch it!

No offense, but starting baseball @ the age of 3 isn't baseball...I just did a bity baseball camp for 3-4 year olds and they are more concerned with picking their noses than they are with baseball. And you may know baseball and that's nice, but if you say Theriot shouldn't be playing based on comparing numbers with Cedeno's 47 ABs you're still nuts. I certainly wasn't using it as a scare tactic either, because there are plenty of MLB players who don't know baseball, and plenty of them have gone through the Cubs system, and you would know watching every game for the past 5 years apparently. Hell, Thom Brenneman is broadcasting and he can barely get names right let alone know anything about baseball. It just frustrates me to know end to hear people crap on Theriot. If you want to talk about numbers, go back and look @ Ryno's stats his first two years and then say he was a bad player...none of us are fortune tellers, but Theriot is a good player and Cedeno yes, has tools and a great upside, but so did C. Patterson, apparently.....

We need to get a few more runs here, Dempster deserves the win. Hopefully we can take advantage of the reds bullpen.

I'm with Nick

Also, to say you know baseball maybe better than me is like saying your dad can beat up my dad...It will never be proven, so let's not argue over that...but "logic" apparently tells us that a number two hitter that doesn't hit for power should have more HRs and RBIS than a guy who is not a number two hitter and has a little pop in his bat, especially in the early going this year. I think we need Tuffy Rhodes back because I'm sure he probably led the Cubs team in HRs in his first 47 ABs of the year back in '93.

First off, u must not know baseball that great if ur having to do camps for 3-4 year olds because my 15 year old sister could teach them something...plus i have not thrown out a single stat that compares cedeno and theriot so dont post something about me and not include stats...all i have said is that Cedeno is a WAY better talent than theriot and last time i checked 99 times out of 100 talent wins over hustle or whatever u say theriot has and that applys to ANY sport not just baseball...that is basically like saying u would rahter have theriot than jose reyes cause reyes has talent but theriot would out hustle him (and again, this belief is probably one of the reasons why parents are sending 3-4 year olds to ur baseball camp so u can babysit them for a couple hours)...and way to compare Ryno to theriot - that is a complete joke and so is comparing C. Pat to RC because RC has already outperformed C. Pat and C. Pat was a cant miss prospect unlike RC.

Well bullpen, lets keep it close. I have a good feeling about this one yet.

Freel looked out to me.

These Reds announcers are officially the worst in baseball...complete idiots...there is no way D-lee pulled his foot and he says "Well there is no good angle and the first base ump must konw the call." or somethin like that...what an idiot

It's called volunteer work. Instead of slaving over hours of baseball footage from archives maybe you should try it. If talent always wins then why haven't the Yankees won a WS since acquiring every teams' good players?? Dude, you're so lost right now. You took offense to a post that wasn't even directed toward you, but go ahead and make me look smart by saying it is glorified babysitting, trust me, I know. I was there, I did it, but like I said, I was volunteering for the local YMCA and helping a guy out...but apparently when you were 3 years old you were a prospect or something and it was different for you. Grow up bro. I never compared Theriot to Ryno, I just asked you to go back and look at his numbers in his first two years and see if then you would have thought he was a good player or not. Never said Theriot would be Ryno. I guess this major university education doesn't put a lot of emphasis on reading comprehension.

They are homer Reds announcers and one of them is the offspring of the man with the worst hair in the history of sports...actually, a close 2nd to Gene Keady.

Nice job Fox. Now LET'S GET SOME RUNS!!!

Yeah ur right maybe i should volunteer a little more...i volunteer 50 hours a week as a basketball manager throughout the school year...then in the summer i volunteer to coach a legion team and also volunteer 3 full weeks at basketball camps to build up my resume...but ur right i should grow up and volunteer sometime...oh and i am also a Big Brother in Big Brothers Big Sisters but yeah i should really do something productive and help out a young kid...but hey right back at u by making me look smart by acting like ur a great person for volunteering and telling me to grow...oh and go ahead and clown on my education because ill get the last laugh as i work my way to the top because of my education and volunteer for high profile people

Ryan/Lows...what's with you guys tonight? You both should be embarrassed. Please stop this already.

I wish everyone was hitting like Soto tonight.

Hey guys....let's chill and talk about the game. I know everyone is frustrated but remember we are all on the same side here.

Can I have your autograph? I mean seriously, they should make volunteer cards like baseball cards, I'm sure your volunteer stats would rival those of Cedeno's baseball stats, well through his first 47 ABs anyway. I mean, for the 2nd time tonight I'm eating crow. Pie makes a great play and you do volunteer work. But I should have known that, what an idiot I am. Gosh...feel terrible. Sorry man, don't beat me up or something, I can tell you're pretty upset. You have to be mad to be spouting out your volunteer stats like that. I'm sorry I made you look like a turd and admit to being a basketball manager too...

yea, we are on the same side, and yea, I feel like a dork agruing over this stuff, but I'm not as embarrassed as he is...he just admitted to being a basketball manager for his school.

Wow ur a fag Lows...and no problem Neil this will be my last post about this topic...anyway Lows i have a solution to this whole problem...that is u go back to ur old ways and stop posting again, this time forever, as all was good tel u got involved...it was nice talkin to ya but thanks man have a good break

Alright lets stop pissing in each others cheerio's. you guys are both great and are volunteer machines. Each argument is noted and no one is ever going to win....until Cedeno gets traded before the deadline. :) Lets get to Coco and win this game.

I don't think this will go down as one of the CCO's best comment nights. Boys, take a breather.

Fontenot! Pie!

C'mon fellas, let's make this happen!

yea, sorry, I just get fired up, especially when the Cubs are losing, but no reason to call someone a "fag". That's Ozzie Guillen crap. And what the crap...Ward just pee'd on that ball.

Can we get any more unlucky tonight? Demp gettin jobed in the first and now Ward hits on the screws right at someone...dang

The first inning really set the tone for the game. The umpire was crap and we certainly got some iffy calls, but at least Soriano walked...and now it's time for Theriot to make me look good :^D!

I amy not think Theriot is the best option but im still a Cub fan...lets make a RIOT!!

I think I'm going to be ill.....

i wonder how many people will talk of the great at bat that sori just had. he swung out of his shoes at hittable fastballs and let the breaking balls go. drew a walk attaboy!!!!

That was close, man it looked like Fontenot got in there.

THATS TERRIBLE...Font was safe cause coco blew that tag

Gabor Bako....I hate you.

The defense put us behind, the pitching didn't overcome the extra outs, the bottom third of the order didn't show up, and you usually need more than 3 runs to win in Cincy. Great game Soto. Good games Theriot and Soriano. A sputtering 9th inning rally. The funk continues. The site sucked tonight too. Let's get the Reds tomorrow and quiet the talk that is either demeaning or self-serving or both--too.

Deflation...

ARRRGGGGG!!!!! We need to get this thing turned around starting tomorrow. Dempster did not deserve that lose at all.

i think Lou lost that game right off the bat...

note to Lou: DeRosa belongs on bench!!!!!

3 k's, and a fielding error that led to the difference in the game.

He's scuffling, obviously, and Lou's been saying, "i want to get Cedeno in there"...Well, here's your opportunity idiot...take out the underperformer, and insert him in the lineup!!!!!!!

GEEEEEEEEZE

what a terrible last 5 games we've had....I don't even care about the 9-3 win...that wasn't even that great...we had a lot of breaks go our way that game....this defense needs improvement

AMAZING jumping catch by Pie, and he showed a little patience at the plate, walking, then getting the single

DeRosa just does NOT belong in the lineup right now...along with Soriano

For the record, I thought Fontenot was safe.

On a site note, hey guys this is a place where we can talk about the game and the Cubs. Everyone has their own opinion and that is the way it should be. But please DO NOT treat other commenters/posters the way you guys did tonight again. I asked for it to stop and so did Shaun.

We all get frustrated, but do not take it out on each other.

That was not one of the best umped games tonight at all.

Wow what a bummer tonight on the field and the site.

Some notes:

Guess we should trade Fukudome - no hits / 2 strikeouts...what a bum.

I actually did 5932 hours of volunteer work, and I am pretty sure my dad can beat up your dad.

In fact, I am pretty sure my kid's dad can beat up your kid's dad...so obviously I am more important, smarter, and better-looking than you.

DeRosa + Theriot + Fontenot = poor run production..can't have all three in the game at the same time, unless we are up by 5 runs and it is the last two innings of the game.

I miss Aramis.

hmmmmmmmm...thought Neil was trying to put an end to the shenanigans Jason....though I know you were sarcastic...still, just let it go

I didn't comment until after the game, because it got out of hand...

I stand behind what I said about DeRosa should not have been in the lineup....I don't see how anyone could argue with that assumption. He's scuffling and needs a day off. I don't know for sure, but I believe he's been in all of our games thus far, and he's obviously been in a funk. Lou says, "i want to find ways to get Cedeno in the lineup"...Well, as I see it, DeRosa doesn't have much range, and Cedeno made a very nice back-handed play yesterday at third, so with ARAM out, I don't see why DeRosa is playing.

As the old saying goes, put up or shut up. If you're not producing, you should be out. It's why Pie was benched for quite some time, ditto Fontenot at the beginning, as well as Theriot at one point. It's why Hill was shipped out to Iowa, Howry was skipped over frequently, and now why Marquis is being talked about for a demotion.

Why are DeRosa and Soriano being given a free pass? Usually when you're scuffling as bad as they are, you insert a Reed Johnson, Ward, or Cedeno in their place, and give them an opportunity to work out their problems in the cage.

It almost seems hypocritical the way they are handling/have handled Hill, Pie, Fontenot, and Marquis, while giving Soriano and DeRosa a free pass.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

keep it classy on here guys...this is a great site

The overall problem is that when a fan-dom is used to perennial losing and don't know what a winner looks like, it gets easy to be defensive about players...

Players who do good should be praised, and players who stink should be hammered... that is how it should be... If they can't handle the pressure, they should play in Tampa Bay.

There were people here saying the Cardinals would fade!! BASED ON WHAT? They have the second best record in baseball, the 2nd best pitching staff in baseball, the best hitter in baseball, the best manager in baseball, the best pitching coach in baseball.....

Only losers get defensive... Winners respond to criticism and accept it with the territory when playing for a big market team...

Hey great news guys the Cards won again....and in exciting fashion...Pujols stealing 3rd in the 8th and Ankiel grounding to 2nd and Albert scoring...wow! Oh by the way he was out by a mile but that doesn't matter because Molina was called out an inning earlier and that tool was safe by a mile...nice umping jags!

All jokes aside I gotta believe we take care of the Reds the next two days then believe it or not I think we take two of three from the D-Backs...that is what we do!

Hey baron,
The Cards will fade based on the fact that their team is loaded with mediocrity and as a general rule, not every one of them will have a career year in the same year. I believe the Cubs were the superior team and would have swept them if they had their number 1 run producer in the line-up. Lets take Puhols out of their line-up (like they should have done in retaliation) and then see how their record fairs.