i t would be amazing if we could get nathan, bedard and roberts!! can i hear WS!!! but all 3 are probably a long shot...

Not to mention the fact we would have to trade our top ten prospects plus Rich Hill and Carlos Marmol. But it sure seems that we need to do something. I think both Roberts and Bedard can be had without killing us. Just look at the D'backs...

The Nathan thing keeps popping up... I'd assume that nothing would happen on that front until the Santana situation resolved itself... but if they got the right mix of players for Nathan (not sure what that would be though) then it could conceivably put pressure on the Santana bidders.

Just going to sit back from this point and see what Hendry has in the works to make Lou happy before Christmas as promised :-) K Fu wasn't a sure thing when he made the statement, so there's probably some good stuff in the stocking coming up :-)

...but with K Fu in the fold, I'm MUCH more laid back about what the rest of the off season might bring.

I hate not letting this die - but interesting article on ESPN about F.P. Santangelo and how he reacted to being named in the Mitchel Report.

Basically boils down to he admits to using HGH to rehab from a serious knee injury and used a two-week cycle of it and it helped... and then did another two week cycle a couple of years later when rehab wasn't going well for a hand injury.

Interesting quote about the second try was...

"I figured if it worked once, it would work twice," he said. "I knew it was wrong, I felt dirty when I did it, but it worked. I love baseball and I love competing and the thought of not doing that scared the hell out of me. I panicked."

He has a radio show and rather than dodge the issues or pull the "no comment" thing he actually did a two hour call in where he got bashed for cheating and praised for facing the music.

Also when he knew he might be included a month ago in the report, he faced the music then and sat down with his kids and explained what happened and what he thought was going to happen. I actually applaud him for that.

I also give him kudos for facing the issue head on. Cheater, not cheater, kind of irrelevant to me. It simply puts a very human face on it for me. The guy was faced with being forced to possibly lose the job he loved or compromise his morals and his morals lost. Say what you will about the guy - but I think we can at least all understand the emotions he was going through and the choice he made. Even if we don't agree with the choice, we can all understand it.

I was going to add some more, but refrained - I'm tired of talking about this stuff and it's only been a day and a half. Everyone has their own opinions about this and we've spelled 'em out and debated them ad nauseum. Plus it's also clear that some folks are pretty vehement when expressing those opinions - and I don't want to start THAT up again.

Hope that doesn't happen (but it probably will for at least a couple of posts). Just thought the article was an interesting read. Those of you tired of the whole thing - please forgive me :-)

Wow! Six players for two and the D-backs show how
intense the competition for post-season greatness is--especially in the NL West. The D-backs with Webb and Haren now have two Cy Young class pitchers, and an old one, Johnson, who expects to pitch. Plus Davis and Owens. The Dodgers have added Jones and seem to have the other Japanese Special K, Kuroda (RHP) ready to sign too. The Rockies are loaded.

So our man JH needs to pull a couple more arms out of the hat--a top right handed starter and a good lefty reliever. Now that the A's, with the trade of Haren are committed to a re-build, Blanton, who won 14 last year is on the block. I'm a little iffy on him, since he gave up 20 hits over 10 innings in his last two September starts. I still like Burnett, who was DL'd twice last year but won 10, including being 5-2 in 10 starts at the end of the year. Maybe the Jay's Marcum, 12-6, is a good choice. The Jays signed Ekstein so they don't need Cedeno, but they still need a lefty like Marshall and a reliever like Ascaino.

Someone on the site reminded us that Cedeno has been playing center field in the winter league and hitting very well. Cedeno in center could happen, and it wouldn't be a big surprise if he averages .280 and hits 15 HR's.

2008 is going to be great! I'm still pushing for Musha (Japanese for Warrior) as the chant for the KooCub. Moo sha! Moo sha! JimK

Gary, I agree with you. I would rather hear a player admit to what he did than continue to lie about it.

Jim K, you are probably aware of this but I thought I would throw out a reminder....Burnett can opt out of his contract after the 2008 season. Also, on Cedeno I have always liked Ronny and he seems to have a good winter and spring almost every year, his problem appears to be playing in stadiums with an upper deck. Cedeno could be a good trading chip as part of a package. I think Hendry could move him to Baltimore if MacPhail is serious about trading Roberts.

A more relaxed environment might be very good for Cedeno and would give him a chance to get comfortable at the Major League level. We all know he has the talent.

Neil...I am aware this is Burnett's opt out year at a tidy $11 M per year. And there is another year or two after 2008 to worry about if A.J. has more arm problems. So JH would have to do some magic to get Burnett--a dominator when he is healthy. Maybe the Jays agree to pay some of the future salary. Or maybe we go for Macum.

I think we need a top right hander. I also like the idea of getting Roberts. If we do, then it probably makes sense to trade DeRosa for a right hander like Billingsly (first choice) or Lowe of the Dodgers. There's likely a package deal available with the Dodgers--especially the way the competition in the NL West is heating up. They could really use a strong, veteran presence at second and DeRosa is that. JimK

In suggesting DeRosa to the Dodgers (above), I forgot the veteran presence of Kent, but DeRosa fits the Dodgers well at third and first too--in the same multi-position way that he has served the Cubs (with an admirable team first attitude). So the Dodgers could be the source of pitching for us. JimK

JimK,

While I agree with you that it would be great if the Cubs could add another quality arm to the rotation, I don't think it's going to happen unless they decide to deal the future away in a Bedard deal (which I probably would be in favor of).

The Dodgers are seeking to bolster their starting pitching (trying to sign Kuroda), not deal it away. I don't there's any chance they'd deal Lowe (their #2 starter) or Billingsley (a young pitcher they consider a future #1 or #2) for a guy who'd be a supersub for them. That would be like us dealing Lilly or Hill for a utility guy. If Billingsley goes at all, it would be in a deal for Santana or Bedard.

Burnett is much more likely to be available to us. He could be great for us, but as you pointed out, there is also his injury history to consider. I also think the price will be higher than you expect given what the Jays have been looking for in exchange for him. It could take Pie or Colvin to bring him here.

The Haren deal last night in which the D-Backs sent 4 top prospects (think Pie, Vitters, Colvin and Gallagher) and plus two other young players to the A's shows that the price for starting pitchers will be quite high this offseason.

I think the tendency is for us to WAY overvalue our own guys....

I'll give you the list of guys that could actually bring a decent return like Burnett, Billingsley, and Lowe among others:
the farm- Gallagher, Hart, Samardzija, Veal, Colvin, Pie, Patterson, and Papelbon

the bigs- Lee, ARAM, Soriano, Soto, Z, Lilly, Hill, Marshall, Marmol, Howry, Wood, and you can't include Fukodome because we don't know how good he'll be

Those minor league prospects listed might not even come close to what other teams have, so that's yet another factor in our ability to obtain significant talent.

Take any one of those guys from the big league team, and it's a total wash for us.

Here's why:

Lee- can't trade for obvious reasons, unless you get a Howard or Berkman in return

ARAM- can't trade unless you get an AROD in return

Soriano- can't trade unless you get a Dunn, Beltran (questionable), or Ichiro in return, among others

Z, Lilly, Hill, Marshall- can't trade unless you get someone like Burnett in return, and even then, you can't give up more than one of those guys to do it

Wood, Marmol, Howry- who would you replace them with? Why the hell would you f$%cking trade a young, effective reliever for an older, established veteran in Nathan who doesn't have near the stuff that Marmol has?

Soto- probably the best catching prospect we've had in a very long time (but we've seen this before haven't we? Rick Wilkins anyone?) Let's just hope he can stay in shape and make us all forget about the offense that Barrett gave us. (by the way---I do think he IS capable of doing so)

As for Brian Roberts---see my comments from the other day about his value....I don't think you can give up many guys for him given the steroid allegations----because you never know if he's still using HGH on the side or anything, as they have yet to test for that. Therefore, if they DO end up testing for it, then you can expect a serious dip in his production. Plus, he's 30...Pre-steroids era, the so-called "prime years" used to be about 24/25-34/35. He's got 4 years left...So you mean to tell me you're going to give up a young, good potential and certainly equal potential to Roberts? Okay, so maybe you don't trade Patterson in that deal...who else are you going to include? Veal? Marshall? Marmol? Gallagher? They can have Cedeno in that deal....maybe even Marshall, but even then, you're totally blocking Patterson, who has equal skills and is younger. Why the hell would you do that? But hey, then again, it's the Cubs....We overpay for declining veterans, and block our young players with stopgaps year after year....

I can't remember who it was on here that said it, but with the signing of Fukodome---assuming he does close to what he did over in Japan----we HAVE to----absolutely HAVE to give Pie a full shot in CF. Instead of trading for Roberts, we should give Patterson a shot. and instead of signing Marquis last year, which ABSOLUTELY made NO sense whatsoever, we should've given Gallagher or Marshall a chance to win the job. Yes, I know that Marshall was injured earlier, but that's why we have Gallagher, and others that could've stepped in. Hell, we had Neal Cotts too. I even think that Marmol could've handled starting pretty well---at least better than Marquis. Instead of trading a very solid Maddux for freaking Cesar Izturis...couldn't we have given Cedeno a full shot, then traded Maddux for some top prospect or a couple mid-tier guys?

You reflect on the moves over the last 20 some years, and you can start to see why we haven't won it all for 100 years. Why even have a draft if you are going to block them, or trade them for a declining veteran later on? Yes, many like to point out trades of our farm for Lee and ARAM that ended up working well, or Walker for Ceda....However, the misses are SO great, that you have to wonder why the hell you have a minor league system if you lose them all eventually in the Rule V, minor league draft, or as I said, trade them for a guy like Jody Gerut.

The Yankees got away with trading their farm system for awhile because they were willing to overpay for proven veterans in their prime through free agency and trade young guys for veteran pieces in their annual playoff runs. But they quickly realized that home-grown talent is what pushes you over the top----Guys like Rivera, Bernie Williams, Jeter, Posada, Cano, etc. all got them to where they needed to be. The Red Sox have also made the commitment to use their farm system wisely. Lately, these teams have been bringing up their talent one, two, or three at a time, and easing them into the lineup or pitching staff very carefully, not shuttling them back and forth when they get in a funk like our management does with the Cubs. Sure, they've missed on some FA signings and trades---Lugo, Drew, Mientkiewicz are some of the names that come to mind----but they don't get the likes of Floyd, Burnitz, Gerut, Marquis, etc., and depend so heavily on them to produce. Those type of guys are bench warmers for those teams, and we've looked for them to be a savior of sorts for the team.

I can remember people saying, "Burnitz will hit 30-40 hr for us with over 100 rbi"...My oh my, how many times have we heard things like that about other guys?

Give the young guys a shot. STOP SIGNING THE FLOYD'S, MARQUIS', and BURNITZ'S of this world.

I'm not saying all of our minor league guys are going to develop into something special----I'm not overvaluing them either, but rather, I am saying that we need to at least give them a shot rather than signing or trading for the type of guys I previously mentioned.

anyway, that's enough of my rant

Aaron,

I agree with you on guys like Burnitz and Floyd bit I think we have to remember that Marquis went 12-9 and pitched 190+ innings last year. I think most teams would take that from their 4-5 starter in the rotation.

I, too, would like to see the younger guys come up and play, but it seems it has been quite a while since any of them have made an impact. I like the enthusiasm of the younger guys and think they bring a lot to an organization.

Our recent history shows that we have made out quite well in trading our minor league phenoms. I am referring to the trades of Hill for Ramirez and Choi for Lee.

It just seems that you have to have balance and that is one of the reasons I like our current team. When you take our veterans and mix them with Theriot, Pie, Soto, Hill and Marshall and mix in a Fukudome, it seems like we have a well balanced team. I would like to see a bit more speed (Roberts, Figgins?) and another starter (I am not too crazy about Dempster returning to the rotation).

But all in all I think it already has been a profitable winter and I am looking forward to next year probably more than any in the recent past.

Not to mention Marquis' first half was spectatcular. He tends to have had good first halfs every year. I wonder if another good first half this year could translate into some decent booty around the trade deadline?

Trades on very good teams happen because each of the trading teams needs to get over the hump are met. No, the Dodgers wouldn't trade Billingsly for DeRosa straight up. But the Dodger's closer, Saito who got 39 of their 43 saves last year is 37 years old, and they have no lefty starter who won more than about 3 games. Their right handed starters include Penny, Lowe, Billingsly and the recovering Jason Schmitt. They are about to sigh Kuroda, maybe to keep him from a competitor, and they have top prospects Meloan and McDonald waiting in the wings. So we would need to add a Ceda and possibly a Marshall to DeRosa to get Billingsly or Lowe and maybe 21 year old lefty starter Scott Elbert who was 11-9 with 173 strikeouts in 143 innings at AA last year. Ahead of Elbert, they have lefty starter, Clayton Kershaw, probably the number one or two prospect in baseball.

What we have may well give them pieces that make them competitive in the tough NL West (and they can taste it--like we can). We do have Marmol and other young relievers--so the trade of top prospect Ceda to help get top prospect Billingsly (or the veteran Lowe) is doable, I think. And I don't think we are holding back our young players. Look at Marmol, Soto, Theriot, Hill, and Marshall. It is a strength to have Gallagher, Pie, and others in reserve because it's certain that some of our players are going to get hurt. They can and will improve and will get their chance. Meanwhile, we are preparing for battle with the big boys in 2008 and need to be as good as we can be. JimK

Aaron,

I couldn't disagree with you more on your Brian Roberts / Eric Patterson comments. I don't know what you see in Patterson that makes you think he'll ever have HALF the major league success that Roberts has had. And to say that they have "equal skills" is ridiculous.

And the Cubs sent Jason Dubois to Cleveland for Jody Gerut. Was Dubois really that big of a loss? What has he done since that trade that has got you so upset?

And for every Burnitz, Floyd, and Marquis signing, there has been a Soriano, Rod Beck, Moises Alou signing as well. Not every free agent we have signed has sucked, not every trade we have made has screwed us.

Furthermore, if we had ten Eric Pattersons on this team, I'd trade them all for Brian Roberts. And if we can get Figgins for Gallagher and any others in our farm system, I'd do that too. I will always take the proven Major League player over "potential".

Despite your comment above about the Red Sox, almost all of their key players have come via free agency or trade. Not thru their farm system. Schilling, Beckett, Dice K, Wakefield, Ortiz, Ramirez, Lowell, Drew, Lugo, Crisp, Tavarez, Timlin, Gagne, Okajima, just to name a few. All of those guys came to their team with proven track records of success. The Sox knew what they were going to get from them when they acquired them, and they have built a pretty damn good team thru that method.

The only three real key players from last year's team that came thru their system were Varitek, Pedroia and Papelbon.

The Red Sox should be the model for the Cubs' success. They are a major market big-spending team that can attract premier talent to their team through free agency, and use their farm system primarily to trade for more premier talent. Exactly as the Cubs should be. Let Colorado and Florida and Kansas City "develop" their players. We shouldn't have to take chances on young guys when we can easily go out and acquire a proven player instead.

And so what if we lose Patterson? There will be another Eric Patterson waiting right behind him in the system anyway. Our team seems so close to being a championship caliber squad right now, why would we screw that up by sticking a bunch of prospects into the lineup and rotation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Could Jason Marquis have success as a relief pitcher? His first have was respectable last season... and then we know how he finished. Might he be effective out of the pen?

Adam in Iowa...I think we should go out on a date some time. We have a lot in common! Seriously, well placed argument.

Aaron also has a strong point in that we should give more value to our own guys. The problem is that our organization has never been able to win with the farm. And just now when the "experts" say our farm sucks the most is when I believe its been the most effective. To tell you the truth, I don't care that experts say. I think Aaron overestimates Patterson a little but don't tell me He and Marshall,Marmol,Soto,Hill,Guzman,Cedeno,Theriot,Gallager, Vitters, Colvin and many more are a weak crop? Honestly we undervalue...but I also take proven talent any day.

I'm with you Adam -

The comment about Jody Gerut was off base. It sounded good on the "and all we get back is Jody Gerut" SOUNDED good... but completely ignored what we gave up - pretty much nothing. DuBois wasn't any big loss - it was just a "change of scenery" trade for both players/teams to fill needs and perhaps kick start the former prospects... which never actually panned out for either.

Aaron you made it sound like we gave up the farm to pull in Gerut... you swung and missed on that example.

And as for the Red Sox, they hit big with rookies the last two years - Pedroia this year and Papelbon the year before - but other than that ALL of their major contributors are big money guys that didn't start off their careers in the Boston farm system. (other than Veritek - thanks for that Adam)

The Red Sox have spent HEAVILY on big names - DiceK, Schilling, Manny - which allows the youngsters to play without pressure... they've never leaned on them to be contributors but if they DID play well (Pedroia and Paplebon) they let 'em run.

And if I remember correctly... Soto was pretty much the starter at catcher for the Cubs the last month of the season and into the playoff over the veteran choices for the Cubs.

He produced in the minors - got brought up - played well - so he played more.

Hopefully we get more of the ones that come up and stick this coming year as well. But if they don't stick - we've got much better depth now than we've had in years.

And the comment that we've signed the Joneses and Burnitzes of the world expecting them to be saviors? Come on Aaron. That one actually ticked me off a bit :-)

They were exactly what we expected them to be - half-way decent players to fill a gap in the lineup. Saviors don't sign for $5 mil a year. Role players do.

Every team has role players. The DeRosas and Murtons of the world. That's what those guys were.

They were hardly depended on as saviors. Burtitz was a flop and Jones performed fairly well for the salary he was given, but neither was brought in to be "the man".

i don't know about Championship
Caliber Mr. Adam... The only new move has been to add Fukodome. We still have no reliable lefty reliver, and basically 3 solid starters in Z, Lilly and Hill.. The rest of the starters are iffy, and outside
Marmol, Wood and Howry the rest of the relief core loooks dodgy too...

We got swept by the Dbacks who got swept by the Rockies who got swept by the Red Sox -- i'd say the Cubs are some ways off from reaching 'championship caliber' status...

a solid lefty reliver is essential(not 56 yr old Eyre). another 12-14 win type starting pitcher is also essential -- then we can start talking championships...

Fukodome does not push us over the Red Sox... sorry to burst the bubble!

Lew- Great point on Marquis. Maybe if the trade winds don't blow his way, then the pen may be an option.

Baron- Thank you for injecting some reality into the championship dreams. If we don't add another starter, another lefty, and in (IMO) inject some speed into the lineup, we will have the same result as last year. Long way to go, but a good start.

Guys,

In a light-hearted manner---and I really mean this light-hearted and in a playful manner.....KISS MY ASS....I mean, seriously...yeah, I forgot to back up my comments, but don't for a moment think that I didn't do my research.

So in terms of us looking at guys like Burnitz to be our savior, or Hairston playing a huge role...

Consider this:

"Hendry expects Burnitz to provide 30 or more homers for the Cubs. Sosa probably can be projected to hit as many as 40 if he stays healthy. That's not a wide variance.

"We also have added the versatility of Jerry Hairston," Hendry said. "He can lead off and steal bases, and don't forget the fact that Michael Barrett is one of the better-hitting catchers in the game. Our offense will be good, and as I mentioned before, our defense will be better. We expect Corey to be even more productive in center."

found at: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20050203/ai_n9504859

or....

confirming this page's suspicions that genral manager jim hendry had been backed into a corner, news this evening comes that the cubs have inked jacque jones to play rightfield for three years and $16mm. this is slightly more per annum than they paid jeromy burnitz, last year's disappointing rightfield signing. burnitz responded by hitting 258/322/435 with 24 homers. jones last year hit 249/319/438 with 23 homers; the year before, 254/315/427 with 23 homers.

change the name on the uniform, but the cubs essentially just extended the burnitzalypse in right by three long seasons.

"We like a lot of things about Jacque," Cubs general manager Jim Hendry said Tuesday in announcing the deal. "He's a very versatile guy. We were very intent on trying to get a left-handed hitter. He's very athletic, has some pop in his bat, an outstanding throwing arm. He's a versatile player and had a lot of upside in him."

found at:
http://www.1060west.net/2005/12/hendry-chooses-never.html

Notice Hendry's comments about both Burnitz and Jones----seems he's under the same delusional tendencies that we, as fans seem to have as well in predicting numbers for veterans that were, at best, mediocre on their previous teams.

Did you see the comments about Jones' arm....ROTFLMAO....LOL.... I mean, seriously, c'mon Hendry!!!!!! Welcome to earth----where we are in touch with reality.

And the Gerut comment Gary J....Where the hell did that come from? I barely even mentioned him.....But, hey, if you want an explanation, here it goes....

Dubois was about the same age as Gerut, but never got a full chance in the majors at all. Gerut's stats in the minors were NOT even CLOSE to Dubois'. Why not give the guy a shot? Corey Patterson too...Was Corey worth two guys that are practically out of baseball, or on the fringes in Nate Spears and Carlos Perez?

I mean, these are the types of deals that drive you crazy....that's all I was saying, but hey, people like to make their own assumptions and that's find, but do your research first....

here's some for you if you don't believe me:

for the Patterson trade-http://whynot2006.blogspot.com/2006/01/os-trade-for-cubs-of-corey-patterson.html

for Dubois-http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/jason-dubois.shtml

for Gerut-http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/jody-gerut.shtml

I agree with the baron. We are still "pretenders" instead of contenders. We lack a dominant #2 starter. We don't have a closer. We're incredibly weak up the middle. As we have it right now, we have ONE left-handed bat in the lineup. And ESPN commented on how the signing of Fukudome just might teach some patience in the swing-happy Cubs (which is a mentality that will never change as long as Soriano bats leadoff).

Maybe if we somehow get Ichiro to play center and serve as Fukudome's interpreter, Santana to come over in a straight-up trade for Patterson, and Papelbon to leave the Red Sox, we'll have a chance.

Although gramps, i'm also with you when say that you're excited for the season to begin... it sure sucks being a Cubs fan...

Aaron is correct, we have not had a "presence" in RF since Sosa was traded. Hell, I remember when LF was the perpetual black hole.

The weather here BLOWS! its 12:45 A.M. and I am contemplating to go out and shovel 9 inches of snow of my driveway. talk to you guys later.