Whether a PTBNL is better than Infante depends on who the PTBNL is (typically from a predetermined list) and my guess is Hendry couldn't get anyone better than Infante (even though Infante isn't all that good). As to where Infante will play, it depends on the rest of the offseason moves (will Cedeno be dealt?, will the Cubs upgrade at SS and make Theriot a supersub?). Infante can play every position other than P, C and 1B so he gives the Cubs some flexibility. There is also the possibility that he is non-tendered by the Cubs in which case he'll become a free agent (my guess is this is what will happen if the Cubs upgrade at SS and bring Theriot off the bench).

David,

But why was JH able to get something of value like PTBNL. or PTBNL. In other deals? Both of those would have been better than Omar Infante. Were will he play? Now we have more overcrowding and not filling holes.

Jim,

The reason that was all we could get for Jones is the same reason that so many Cub fans wanted to trade him ... despite some of his numbers, he's really not that good. The same reason why we won't get anything for Marquis or Dempster in a trade ... despite the wins and saves, they're not so good either. In order to get value, you need to trade value.

Also,

HOW IS THAT ALL WE CAN GET FOR jAQUE jONES?!?!?!?!?!? And we eat $2 mill on the deal. And Why a career .250 hitting 2bman. We already have Fontenot.

Before I started reading this I was leaning toward keeping Hill and Marmol....... Now I have no clue what to think. Very, Very good points on both sides. You have to way out oth the positives for both sides and see what weighs more. Will Crawford help our team more than Hill and Marmol will? Will the throw in pitcher prospect be the next dontrell willis?

I like Marmol a lot but I also think that he is a injury waiting to happen. Such a violent delivery. Anytime any player is called the next anyone it never comes to fruition.

The only thing that I keep thinking about is will it make the team better? Would we be better off signing Fukudome and keeping our youth.

The trades that need to happen are Marquis and Dempster.

I hope Wood signs soon.

How many pitchers have come up to Chicago with great minor league credentials, had one great rookie season, gotten us all to believe they are going to be the next Nolan Ryan, and then let us down?

Let's reminisce....

In 2001, Kyle Farnsworth had a dominating season out of the bullpen, and I thought we had the next Goose Gossage on our hands. 100 mph fastball, 2.74 ERA, 107 K's in 82 innings. He had finally put it together, and he would eventually become our closer for the next decade....

And then he promptly followed up the next year by posting a 7.33 ERA, and never duplicated his dominating 2001 season before eventually being traded for the beloved Roberto Novoa. (I will give the Farns credit though, he did become the best open-field tackler in baseball. And his "ground and pound" skills are second to none. He's kind of like Chuck Norris in a baseball uniform.)

At the tail-end of 2001, a rookie stud came up and had the most electric stuff I had ever seen from a Cubs pitcher. Juan Cruz, I thought was going to be the next Pedro Martinez. He finished with just a 3-1 record, but I thought he was going to be an All-Star pitcher for us eventually...

The following two years he went 3-11 and 2-7 before finally being shipped off to Atlanta for nothing.

2003 brought us Mark Prior, and I won't even go there....

Who wasn't screaming "NO WAY!!" when the Cubs were considering trading him for Miguel Tejada two years ago?

And Kerry Wood....

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when a young pitcher comes up and has immediate success, the natural reaction is to think that he will continue his success from year to year, and get even better each year. But history tells us that it usually doesn't happen. Lately, Zambrano has been the only exception to the rule.

With Hill, we have a 28 year old 2-pitch pitcher that just completed his first full season. And it was a pretty impressive season. 11 wins, 195 IP, 183 K's, 3.92 ERA. But will he improve next year? Or will he implode like Farnsworth did? Will he get hurt like Prior and Wood? Or might he never reach his potential like Cruz? History tells us he may never get any better than he is now. I'm guessing he'll implode mentally, based upon what I've seen so far. Do we hang on to him and ride or die with him, because he's been a great minor league pitcher and he has great "potential"? Or do we listen to history, and trade him now while his value is at it's highest?

Marmol, the same thing. 5-1 record, 1.43 ERA, 96 K's in 69 innings. Competely dominant. The next Mariano Rivera? Or the next Farnsworth? Who knows?

But I will guarantee one thing: Marmol will NEVER have another season as dominant as he just had. He just pitched the best season of his entire career, one of the best seasons a middle reliever has ever had. If he pitches 20 more years, it will be impossible for him to duplicate that success. So his value has got to be immensely high right now. Do you trade him or keep him?

I think he's an injury waiting to happen. With his best pitch being that slider, and the violent motion he uses to throw it, is a TJ surgery in his future? And then he's damaged goods, worth nothing in a trade.

If Hill and Marmol can be traded for Crawford, who has now proven himself for 5 full seasons, why is that such a huge risk? Crawford has proven he will hit near .300 every year, steal 55 bases, score 100 runs, drive in 80, hit 15 HR, put immense pressure on opposing pitchers with his speed, and play great defense. He has a 5-year track record for putting up these numbers. AND HE'S ONLY 26!

At what point do we stop believing our young pitchers are destined for greatness, and having our hearts broken by them over and over again? At what point do we finally start trading our young pitchers when they can bring us great young players in return? I hope it's this year, and this trade.

This is a great thread with well thought out arguments both for and against a potential (and realistic) Crawford/Hill deal. Very enjoyable to read. Keep it up gentleman!

You have a point Gary J and it is indeed a tough call. One thing to keep in mind is that minor league numbers are just that. In the bigs is a Brave new world and Crawford #s are in the bigs.

Oh well, like the wise old man says...I would Rob Peter to pay Paul? If Paul is Crawford and Peter is Hill....any day! Ok I'll stop now. But good point Gary.

Adam - I agree in principle with the "trade players while their value is at its highest" - but the question is if you trade away a good player, can you replace him with another as good or better at his position?

In the case of Hill - I'm not so sure. The best free agent starting pitcher out there looks like either Carlos Silva, Josh Fogg, Livan Hernandez, or that guy from Japan. None of that group knocks my socks off and all (as the best options out there) would be likely to cost a bundle - probably FAR in excess of their potential to help.

In our system, there are really only three options MLB ready - Gallagher, Marshall, and Dempster (Veal had a 5 ERA in AA so he needs more work obviously).

If you're comfortable with one of those guys in the rotation (along with Marquis too apparently) instead of Hill - then we're OK.

My take is there are simply more players available in the market to plug the hole in the outfield than there are to fill a hole in the rotation if we trade Hill.

And for those that are bashing Hill as someone that's not going to have a value any higher than it is right now... look at his minor league numbers from 2004 and 2005 - he was absolutely dominant. 18-5, sub 3 era, 230 innings with 329 strikeouts. 329! and only 56 walks!

I'll grant you that some of his starts this year were maddening - but other starts were stellar. It was his first full year in the majors. Anyone remember his April this past year? 3-1 with a 1.77 ERA.

The first year in the majors for any pitcher is an exercise in making adjustments. The rule of thumb in the fantasy circles is to generally avoid starting pitchers just starting out. It's their third year where they start to shine... and it's a rule of thumb because it's proven to be fairly accurate. Closers and relievers though tend to have a faster track for some reason. Maybe because a late inning reliever is more about stuff and a starter is more about pitching.

I just see this as a "grass is greener" kind of thing. The player we don't have always seems to look better than the ones we do.

Don't give up on Hill just yet - he averaged over 12.8 Ks per 9 innings in his last two years in the minors - and that was only two years ago. He's a stud waiting to happen.

...that said though - I can't argue with your analysis of Crawford. He definitely would look good in Cubbie blue.

I just worry more about replacing Hill in the rotation than someone else in the OF

Adam in Iowa, Agustin..Push me just a little more. Im starting to be sold on yalls ideas. Really.

Augustin,

Couldn't agree more. IMO Jose Reyes is about the only other player more dynamic than Crawford.

And I'm sick of only trading guys when their value is at it's lowest. See: Sosa, JJ, Farnsworth, Hawkins, Patterson, Barrett, etc.

Let's make a trade once in a while when a guy's value is at it's highest. Then we'll have something to show for it. And Hill may already be as good as he's going to get. His value won't ever be higher than now. And if he can net us a superstar player, then send him off.

With Marmol, on the other hand, the sky's the limit. He can be the centerpiece of the bullpen for years...or maybe he'll flame out like Farnsworth did. Who knows? Maybe his value is higher than it will ever be also.

But Crawford is a proven player, only 26 years old, and the type of player the Cubs have never had. I say he's worth it.

There going to want Marmol. That would be a bad trade. Marmol for anybody.

This is how dead the MLB news is..

The Mike Felger evening drive here in Boston kept giving updates about the Monroe-PTBNL trade AGAIN and AGAIN... why is that news.. who cares about that anyway...

MLBTR just issued a report that the Crawford for Hill, Patterson, etc., has been shot down by Rays officials. We may all breath a sigh of relief.

As always, I don't expect this trade for Crawford to happen. I prefer to pretend nothing is going on and if it happens I'll then celebrate and go nuts

Matt...IMO I would not mind Fukudome but he is somewhat of a gamble here and many teams are interested so his price is going up. Crawford, on the other hand, is probably the best all around baseball player in the mayor leagues. [you guys might think I’m nuts but check his resume] http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6870 Fukudome seems to be good but he is not Ichiro and Crawford apparently is. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6615 [Ichiro]

Rich Hill is a solid pitcher. That said, he will never throw harder than 89mph and is the SO leader because we don't have other SO pitchers. I have a feeling that he is being figured out more and more every time out and his trade value will never be any higher than what it is now. A trade right now could be the answer for the 08 season. He could easily be the Zito of the past or just the[07] version. Seriously, I question his heart and his toughness and I hate what he did to Michael Barret, when things were tense he stepped on his face. Marmol is more valuable IMO, has the stuff and the heart. Something's got to give to get a guy like Crawford. If it takes Hill, I’m fine with it and we save the money of JJ/Fukdome/Monroe/Floyd/Trax/Kendall and get a quality Starter[except there are non besides Santana] and we need to sign Wood.

Crawford would be nice. But does anyone feel comfortable with losing the man who led our team in K's in Rich Hill. Or losing the reliever who righted the track for the bullpen in Marmol. I dont think so. Id take a shot at Fukodome.

I'm actually pulling for the Cubs to pull Fukudome - Crawford would look nice in Cubbie blue of course, but the concern there is what we would have to give up. I really don't want them to trade Hill. He's got electric stuff and is only lacking experience. Fukudome would only cost us money - and since it's Cubs money and not MY money... LOL

Between Hendry getting rid of Floyd, Jones, and Monroe (although two of those were going to happen anyway) they freed up about $15 mil of payroll - that ought to be enough to pull off a couple pretty good additions to a solid team.

Let the rumors fly! :-)

I know that it's speculation, but a trade for Crawford would be huge for this ball club.

LF - Soriano

CF - Pie

RF - Crawford

3B - Ramirez

SS - Theriot

2B - Derosa

1B - Lee

C - Soto

That's a great lineup to put out there everyday. Come on Hendry make it happen.

Great stuff as always Neil. Good move with Monroe. We might as well get something for him since they were just going to non-tender him anyway. I'm going to flip out if Jimbo can pull of this Crawford deal. Man would he look good in Cubbie blue!!!

Go Cubbies!!!